Calling All Atheists and Interested Parties

Though quoting Lib, this is in response to this oft-raised point, brought to the table this time by PRR.

Let me offer to the collective wisdom of Doperdom the proposition that issues in a discipline are properly dealt with using the methodology of that discipline.

I would no more require of PRR or Fretful Porpentine that they “prove to me by the scientific method that Henry James is a better writer than Alan Dean Foster.” The proper tools for this are in literary criticism. I’m not sure how anyone would go about devising a “scientific” proof for the question, and if anyone should come up with an answer, I’m sure others would gleefully shred the proferred methodology.

Likewise in the social sciences, experiments cannot be structured with the same sense that “in a properly designed experiment, a given object will always react in the same predictable way.” The social sciences study the behavior of human beings, whose motivations and consequent actions are multifarious and not fully predictable. You cannot treat the subjects of a psychological or sociological study as physical objects or biological specimens; you need to allow for individual vagaries of behavior in structuring your experiment.

And the proper methodology for demonstrating the existence and characteristics of the Ultimate Ground of All Being, a Personal Entity who supersedes the Universe? You cannot dip God in acid to see what chemical reactions he goes through, or hit him with chisel and mallet to see what shape he fractures in. You cannot run God through a maze (WTF would you use as a reward, anyway?)

Suffice it to say that it is my considered and honest opinion that the interventions of God in my life have changed me in ways that I would have rejected before them as too risky and vulnerable, but which, having been through those changes, I can say fully that they were changes that I am a much happier man for having been through them. I find it possible – barely possible – to posit a subconscious subtle enough to realize I needed to go through them and delude me into thinking there was a God doing that to me. I find it completely beyond the realm of possibility that I have a subconscious with the psychic powers to recognize that I will soon meet a young man and take him for a son who was instrumental – well nigh necessary – in bringing me through those changes, whose existence I was at the time of that experience absolutely unaware of and whom I had seen exactly once before in my life, and that in a casual pass-each-other-on-the-street event. Rather than posit a precognitive genius subconscious devising a methodology for changing my emotional structure and self-image based on a highly improbable series of events involving people it did not yet know well enough to analyze their role, some sort of supernatural intervention seems to me to be the more reasonable hypothesis.

By the way, William of Ockham’s shaving implement seems to be cropping up over and over again here. I wonder if anyone besides me realizes what kind of logical principle it is? It’s not the tools Lib can discourse at length about for deductive logic. It’s not a part of the scentific method or other techniques of inductive logic. Rather, it’s one of the tools of abductive logic – the heuristic methodology that makes human problem solving better than computer for the moment.

Abductive logic is the method by which we eliminate the improbable, the absurd, the inane, and the wildly outrageous. It’s a technique for quickly establishing probability of having been the cause.

Turn on the TV, and observe: the current episode of “Lawn Odor: CSI Poughkeepsie with Criminal Intent” is on. And lo and behold, there is a body lying there with his head bashed in, and a bloody hammer lying next to it. Now, at first cut, the following are possible hypotheses:

[ol][li]The Flying Spaghetti Monster appeared to him and drove him insane, so that he suicided by bashing his own brains in with the hammer.[/li][li]Mr Mxyzjplxk appeared from the Fifth Dimension and did it to him.[/li][li]Aliens from the fifth planet of Mu Monoceratis whisked in by a matter transporter and did it.[/li][li]The Illuminati needed to eliminate him, to carry on their plot.[/li][li]It was Elvis, who has not* been in Kalamazoo since he faked his death, but carrying on an illicit gay romance with Bigfoot in the Oregon mountains, and the deceased had uncovered evidence of it and needed to be disposed of.[/li][li]The CIA discovered he was immune to their mind control rays.[/li][li]The Dalai Lama snapped, went homicidally insane, travelled to this place and killed him, then as quickly snapped out of it and went back home.[/li][li]He was killed when he surprised a random burglar trying to rob his home.[/li][li]His estranged ex-wife did it in a fit of rage over his having hired private detectives to monitor her current romance.[/li][li]His gay son, who had just come out to him and whom he had told he was forcing into “reparative therapy,” killed him as what he saw as the only way out.[/li][li]The gofer at work whom he regularly belittles, whom he doesn’t know is actually his son by an affair 22 years before…[/li][li]Batman was prepared.[/ol][/li]
Obviously any sane individual (except Reality Chuck, who has saved this post as possible story material ;)) is going to eliminate about 2/3 of the potential explanations above. But why? What makes specific explanations more likely than others? (And in Chuck’s story, it really was Elvis! :))

The answer is that one uses a “filter” to eliminate the abstruse and bizarre unlikely solutions, allowing one to focus in on the most probable few.

They have not been disproven, by deductive reasoning. They have not been excluded as “not saving the phenomena” by induction. Rather, they have been tagged as “wildly unlikely” by abductive reasoning.

Ockham’s Razor is just such a principle. It says, in essence, “That explanation is most probable which requires one to assume the least number of hypothetical entities to entertain it.” Not proven; most probable. That’s an important distinction. When you’ve eliminated all the probable explanations, it’s time to check out what the Dalai Lama and Batman were doing. But only after you’ve eliminated the other, more probable ones.

To wit, the President of the US just concluded his elegaic remarks at Ford’s funeral with some glurge, purporting to represent the views of the country, wishing God’s blessing upon Ford, etc.

Assuming I’m a big fan of Ford’s (I’m not), and assuming I’m happy that Bush feels free to represent my views (I do not), I’m outraged that Bush would voice my views on God’s existence. If he had said “Jesus Christ’s blessing…” that would be no more offensive to me, though he would have caught some flak for excluding Jews and Moslems, etc., from the Americans he claimed to speak for, and if he had said “Baal’s blessing…” he would have had his baals kicked in for daring to voice America’s beliefs so improperly.

It’s all about the numbers. Xians get to behave outrageously because they are more numerous than any other group here, not becuse their views are any more legitimately derived. This is the sort of outrage that is so common that Xians have come to think of it as merely their due.

I appreciate the rant. As you know, I’m interested in the logic of belief (or the lack thereof.) I don’t try to convert, and the few people who have come to my door to try to convert me never come back.

If a Mack follower came here, would you not try to evaluate the evidence? I don’t recall anyone saying that your subjective experiences of God were lies. Just about everyone accepts that you and others have had them. Same with abductees. But saying there is a more plausible explanation for the experience than either contact with a deity or contact with aliens is not calling the experience a lie. Would you consider the explanation of alien abduction a reasonable one, or would you suggest alternatives? That’s my question.

Perhaps we should use emotional vs. logical instead of the loaded words rational or irrational. God in times past was a hypothesis used to explain the world inexplicable through the knowledge available to people. That’s the logical justification for god belief (also known as god of the gaps, but the gaps were so big as to not really be gaps.). I contend there is no real justification for a logical god belief (and certainly none for a logical belief in a specific God) but you are welcome to your emotional justification.

People are driven by subjective experiences, but they usually bow to objective ones. If you feel you’ve seen a UFO, but someone points out that a meteor was observed where and when you saw it, you’d probably change your opinion on what you saw, right?

Certainly some people believe in God irrationally, because momma or the preacher man said they should. I’m addressing the general Doper level of knowledge, which includes enough about science and the real world to not justify belief through ignorance.

And please, none of that Austraila guff. No one is requiring direct experience. The mass of reports of direct experience of Australia, supported by other reports, is a lot different from the level of evidence we have for gods. If reports on Australia included both an inland sea and an inland desert, both kangaroos and polar bears, then I’d wonder.

We’re not talking about aliens in general, but about the specific type who come into people’s bedrooms and carry them off for horrible experiments.
The rest of your post doesn’t address the question. I’m sure many abductees are wonderful people. I’m wondering about how you decide to accept or reject subjective evidence, and if you have one standard for god experiences and another for non-god experiences.

That’s exactly what I tried. Twice in immediate succession.

Except that it doesn’t. :slight_smile: What I said (each time) is that the most compelling evidence I have is my experience, not that it is my only evidence.

Let me try to explain this again. Two people. Smith and Jones. One set of evidence. Smith says, “This evidence leads me to believe A because of logical argument X.” Jones says, “This evidence leads me to believe B because of logical argument Y.” If what Smith is led to believe contradicts what Jones is led to believe, then they may debate which of their arguments, X or Y, is superior.

But if either one of them says the other has no evidence, then he’s damned his own self because the evidence is the same. And if either one of them says the other has no argument, he is misstating the facts. One may believe his argument to be superior to another, but to deny that an argument is made (or even possible) is just… bizarre.

With you and me, same same. You look at the universe and see no god. I look at the universe and see God’s (metaphorical) hand all over it. You look at scientific theories like evolution as evidence against the existence of God. I look at scientific theories like evolution as evidence of God’s amazing wisdom. You look at the modal ontological argument as a mess of incomprehensible mumbo-jumbo. I look at it as an eloquent proof for the necessity that God exist.

Do you see? You and I. We both can look at the same thing and draw different conclusions. Your saying, when all is said and done, that I made no argument just because you believe your own argument is superior would be flaky to the extreme. And if you said that I offered no evidence, as though the same evidence we both looked at in some way belongs to you personally, then that would be an inexplicable usurpation of authority.

I’m not sure he was expressing your views, merely your condolences. I think he was expressing the views of Ford, a Christian man for whom services were underway at a Christian funeral. I would hope that I would offer a blessing at a Hindu funeral in whatever manner is customary for a Hindu believer. And I would hope that at an atheist funeral, I would offer well wishes that were commensurate with the views of the deceased. And if I were the President of the United States — i.e., the head of state — then I would offer them on behalf of everyone.

That would depend entirely on what the explanation was and how it was given. Upon first exposure to the idea, I would certainly be skeptical. And it is entirely possible that, when the person finished explaining, I might remain unconvinced. But I wouldn’t call his argument “not an argument”. I wouldn’t call his evidence “not evidence”. Nor would I otherwise make pretenses about reality and attempt an historical revision of the facts: namely, that he did indeed make an argument that I merely find unacceptable, and that he did indeed offer evidence that I merely interpret differently.

I’m going to add to my will the request that you give the eulogy. I’ll expect you to refer explicitly to my conviction that there is no afterlife, that God is a fantasy of the hopelessly deluded for convincing the simple-minded that the horrors of this life are less horrific than they actually are, and that I sincerely hope that all good people will cease believing in such silly twaddle as God, Xianity and the Bible as soon as possible. Also that you will refrain from introducing any of your own personal beliefs into my funeral services.

Are you available for such a service?

From the quote you posted it looks like Liberal said he’d respect your wishes.

Honestly, why do you care what someone else believes so much that you have to try to make fun and try to belittle them?

Well, let’s see. If Liberal would indeed give a eulogy that reflects my sincere views and none of his, I think he’d be an exceptionally open-minded Xian.

My feeling is that Bush felt comfortable dispensing Xian glurge about a Xian fellow Republican in a Xian-friendly nation. If someone had held views he found repugnant, however, I suspect he (and Liberal, for that matter) would find an excuse not to get into the views of the deceased. All that matters, after all, is that the deceased has passed on, and we all think well of him, no need for getting into his religious viewpoints, bbbyyy.

This bias is so widespread that the most virulently biased cannot even see it. “What’s the big deal, Ruber? The POTUS said a few neutral words affirming God’s existence-- Why does this bother you so much?” I think some Xians really can’t undersand why this is disturbing–they genuinely and sincerely cannot get their minds around the concept.

I’d have no problem delivering your eulogy as you wish it. The only wee problem is that I am one of those “hopelessly deluded … simple-minded” people whom you wish the world to know you despised. A sharp-witted individual might wonder why you chose someone you hold so contemptuously to speak for you. It might not reflect well on you that decided the best person to express your beliefs is a delusional idiot.

You know, PRR, this is a really bad example of Christian bias in our nation. The funeral, though “public” in the sense that the person is a public figure, is not a public occasion…it is a private ceremony, which should reflect the views and wishes of the deceased and his family. I’m sure the President WAS speaking for the vast number of folks in this country, who would want the former President’s funeral service to reflect the deceased’s own life and belief, regardless of their own belief. It would be terribly disrespectful not to. And, yes, I would feel the same way if the person was of any other religion or an atheist.

If you want to get offended because the President mentions god when discussing policy, then that makes sense. At the funeral of a Christian man? Not so much.

Being Catholic, I will expect they will hold an entire funeral mass when I die. If I were President, would I not be entitled to that?

Making the absurd assumption that an open atheist could ever be elected President, just for a moment, how would you feel about his eulogy referring to his brave position denouncing God as a primitive belief, held by the simpleminded and retrograde bbbyyy…?

I suspect that would rankle your asses, but that too would be a public/private ceremony on exactly the same order, and you would be critical of the speaker for having the bad taste to mention views that you find so offensive.

Except that’s not really true. I’m a christian in a vague sense of the word, meaning I’m open to the idea and listening to what people have to say. My father was an atheist and my mother agnostic and they sent us to church as kids so as adults we’d make our own decisions. The last time I was at a church was at someones wedding so I think I can get my mind around the concept, thank you. It seems like lots of hatred comes from people rejecting religious or fundamentalist backgrounds for whatever that’s worth. But the militant, name calling athiest doesn’t come across any better to me than the fundamentalists.

I don’t get why it’s so important to that you have to ridicule anyone that has beliefs unless it somehow makes you feel superior. It might be nice to at least once read one of these thread without reading the words deluded, fairytale, or unicorns or in some manner belittle the person that’s trying to have an honest debate.

It would be very nice, but I find it either simpleminded or evil (I prefer simpleminded) not to see why I would ask politely that the President make no reference to religion while speaking in his public capacity at all, ever, as a sign for those who don’t share his Xian views. The fact that people here are defending it, and with some impatience, does suggest a refusal or an inability to understand my point. Would you rather I characterize your refusal as a willful one? I might then have to report you for trolling.

I do agree with you about the president or elected officials.

Again with the “religious people are stupid” meme.

Fact is, I believe there is no such thing as God. But I haven’t found that everyone with an IQ above 120 who isn’t in jail or a mental institution turns out to be an atheist like me.

Why is that? Pseudotriton, the premise that religious people are only religious because they are stupid is disproven. Religious people are religious, not because they are stupid, but because they are (IMHO, natch) mistaken. Smart people can be mistaken, as can stupid people. And that someone has made a mistake of this nature does not prove them stupid.

As I said waaaay above, the assertion that people who believe obviously false things (like God) do so because they are stupid is itself an obviously false belief. So the examination of exactly why people hold obviously false beliefs would have to include an examination of why you believe that people who believe in God are all stupid.

People believe in God for all sorts of reasons. If I believed as you do, I could only conclude that the only reason you could continue to assert that only stupid people believe in God is that you were stupid. But I don’t believe that, I don’t think you’re stupider than most people, even though you hold an obviously false belief that is easily disproven by empirical evidence. WHY do you hold this false belief? Likely for the same sorts of psychological reasons that many people profess a belief in God. It makes you feel better about yourself. It feeds your ego. It makes you right and everyone else wrong. Self-righteousness is as addictive as crack.

Of course, I agree with you that belief in God is unreasonable. But smart people such as yourself seem perfectly capable of believing unreasonable things. In fact, the history of science shows that beliefs in unreasonable things, hidden assumptions, rationalization and self-delusion (mixed in with a certain amount of out-and-out fraud) are not the exception but rather all too common, even among supposedly “smart” people. The expectation that all smart people must agree with oneself is itself an unreasonable expectation. I’d LIKE everyone to agree with me, sometimes I’m baffled as to WHY people don’t always agree with me, but I’m never surprised or enraged that they don’t agree with me.

And when I find that people don’t agree with me, finding out why they don’t agree with me is an important part of figuring out a way to at least potentially get them to change their mind. If I misdiagnose the problem I’m very unlikely to be able to fix the problem. There’s always the vanishingly small possibility that I might have made a few minor and excusable errors in my own thinking, however unlikely that may seem.

And asserting that religion is caused be stupidity is completely unhelpful in fixing the “problem” of religion. If it really were true that religion was caused because people are too stupid, then there’s no help for it, since there’s no way to make people smarter. But the evidence shows that religiosity can increase or decrease over time, or in different places. Do you really think people who live in a-religious times do so because of a trend towards greater intelligence, while people who live in religious times do so because of a trend towards stupidity? That’s obvious nonsense. We can educate people better, we can create a society where people are largely free from fear, hunger, and disease, but we can’t make people smarter. So if religious people are dumb and dumb people are religious, then to expect anything other than a continuation of religiousity into the indefinate future is pretty unreasonable.

Lemur866, well said. In toto.

Lemur’s points make me wonder whether there’s such a thing as an antitheist. Lemur would be an atheist; i.e., a rational non-theist who simply does not believe in God. Is it possible that Pseudo is an antitheist, rather than an atheist, believing strongly in No-god?

I agree, Lemur, that was a great post.

Pseud – you’re apparently unaware of the concept of Civil religion. I’m not saying this makes it “all right” for a president to invoke god – I’m just saying there’s a context it would behoove you to understand before you go off on this particular tangent.

(and, BTW, great post Lemur866!)