Calling All Atheists and Interested Parties

Okay, I’ll answer that, but let’s be clear up front that by “physical evidence”, we do not mean “scientific evidence” with respect to God. An alien from another planet is made of atoms — a physical entity — and therefore is subject to the rigors of a good scientific test. We might find scientific evidence, even if only on a microscopic level, to support or oppose a falsifiable hypothesis.

But physical evidence of a metaphysical deity must of necessity mean something different, since a metaphysical entity is not made of physical stuff like atoms. The only such physical evidence that we can examine is the sort I referenced earlier: evidence that can be construed either way. Much like Ramachandran’s comments about temporal lobe activity which, he says, can be used to argue for the existence of God as much as against it. (The reasoning, of course, is that you cannot determine whether the phenomenon you observe is God stimulating the limbic system, or the limbic system conjuring hallucinations of God. All you see is actvity.)

Okay. Well, as I often say, it really doesn’t matter whether God created mankind or even the universe for that matter. It all serves His purpose just the same.

No, science didn’t predict them. Scientists predicted them — with falsifiable hypotheses. Science is a testing method, not a prognostication system.

Well, you do make a prediction. But you aren’t science. (And please do me the courtesy of refraining from charges of nitpicking. It is important in these discussions to get these things right, and frame them properly. There’s plenty enough misunderstanding to go around without anthropomorphisms and hypostetizations. I’m just trying to be precise.)

I’m not sure those reasons are as opposite as you think. I welcome Xians backing up their lip service wtih elaborate explanations, with which I can argue, instead of their just dismissing it as “Oh, when I minimized your place in the culture? That was just a gesture, using ‘God’ as a common cultural bookmark, entirely without meaning,” when in fact the meaning is clear to me (and to catsix) you are not one of us, you don’t count. Wanna be heard? Well, sign up here in the book of X, my son, like any good American."

And for all the accusations I get about pot-stirring, this is my calling for civility: stop flexing your muscles about how central God is to everyone’s life, and I’ll have less to complain about. Just telling me, “Oh, put a sock in it, Ruber, no one cares that you feel marginalized” is precisely my point. It’s wrong, and no one cares.

There sure are a lot of good posts in this pit thread.

You people are fucking awesome. :smiley:

Have you noticed how much better the religious debates have been the last week or so? Just saying.

Why is that? :wink:

It is my belief that rayh is alluding to the absence of a particular member of our community.

I’ve been saying for years, never mind GD; if you want good civil debate, go to page 7 or after of a Pit thread on a topic of interest to you. After people have had the opportunity to drain their venom, they’re free to actually politely respond to each other’s points, and communicate intelligently. :smiley:

It’s just getting to that point, however, that is a strain! :stuck_out_tongue:

===

PRR, I think I see what you’re saying. You know, I manage to go through debates on Constitutional law, GQ threads on topics from the fine points of language usage to thecodont cladistics, and a variety of other threads in a number of forums, without finding it important to bring God into the picture. Of course, in a thread on religion, strangely enough, the point that I’m a convinced Christian seems fairly relevant a peculiarly large percentage of the time, you know?

As far as your point goes, I respect your right to believe or not believe as you see fit, without let or hindrance, and believe you should have no social pressures to put up with proselytizing. But, my friend, when you enter into a thread on atheism/religion, you’ve just walked into a country bar, and no, they’re not going to turn off George Strait and put on a little Vivaldi or Tom Waits just to please you.

You don’t get to press your thinking that nobody should believe in any gods on everyone else. I don’t get to press my thinking that people ought to believe in God in the manner I do. And so on. And most especially, Congress, the state Legislatures, the school boards, the city councils, judges who are Baptist elders, and anyone else on the public dime does not get to put a regulation in place that compels or coerces anybody to profess a belief in the God of their choice, be he carefully defined by creed or the amorphous entity that “doesn’t really mean anything” of ceremonial deism.

It’s called freedom of religion. I think it was a great idea. I think it’s worth fighting for. And I call on everybody else, from catsix to Clothahump to join us in defending it.

About religion, there are two kinds of people in this world. And I don’t mean believers and non-believers. Instead, I mean people who are willing to respect the right of their neighbor to think differently than they do, and people who think it’s their right and privilege to force their neighbor into lockstep with them. The only difference between the latter and the world’s worst tyrant is how much power they wield.

Polycarp: Very well said, I still do not understand how such an incredible intelligent person as yourself can buy into an organized religion, but it is your right to do so as long as, as you said, you do not force it on others.

For the record, I have defended your right to freedom of religion and *Psuedo’s ** right to freedom from religion both as an member of the military and as a proud civilian American that speaks his mind.

Your final paragraph is something I have always believed.

pseudotriton ruber ruber: I did know what and who rayh was talking about, that was the point of the wink. His post was funny to me.

Jim

  • insert joke here

I’m with you 100% on this, though I’m not sure you’re with me. What I support is “the right of their neighbor to think” exactly how that neighbor wants to think. I’ve made this point before, but I’ll say it again. I totally support you in thinking what you want to think, just as I support your right to breath whatever air you choose: my feellings about something I have no influence on would, if they existed, be presumptuous. You’re going to think what you think, no matter what I say. If you decide that I’m making a lot of sense, and you want to play for my team, that’s fine, too, but you’re going to make that decision (I won’t hold my breath.) It’s when you start proclaiming your beliefs in public that I have a problem, and when you feel ok expressing the idea–or even implying it-- that your beliefs are in any way superior to mine that I have a real problem.

I still hold that view.
And the name was slythe.

Polycarp & **Psuedo ** and anyone else:

How do you feel about the rights of the parents to home school kids and not meet minimum standards of education?

A good example is not teaching even basic science but making sure they load up on religion.

This actually came up in a few evolution vs. Intelligent Design threads and I got called an ass for saying that parents should not have the right to deny their kids a proper education. I equated sending kids to certain fundie schools as a form of child abuse.

Jim

You know, the assumptions flying by are really enlightening.

I oppose the use of the phrase “In God we trust.” on the money.

I oppose the inclusion of religious matters in any tax supported enterprise.

I am adamantly opposed to any educational involvement in religion in public schools, even voluntary participation.

I would bring up the inclusion of “Under God” in the pledge of allegiance, except that that particular bit of jingoist crap already earned my entire contempt before it was changed.

However, some Christians, and some atheists are absolutely sure that I must support all these things because I am a Christian. How dare I have an intellectual opinion about political religionism? I am supposed to be an idiot, it says so right here in the Atheism manual!

Logic. Pah.

Tris

I take (sooprise, sooprise) an extreme position on this one. I feel that parents shouldn’t be able to indoctrinate their kids in anything.

When my kids were small, I told them 1) that they didn’t need to concern themselves with grownup ideas too fast, and it’s okay to be a kid and not worry about that stuff too quickly. and 2) when they got older, I told them that they would have to figure out some things by themselves. I could tell them what some people think, and I’ll try to be fair in outlining ideas by various grownups, but the important thing was that they made up their own minds, and there was no real rush to do that because some of these questions are hard. And they’re always free to change their minds, and that changing their minds is not only good, it’s a necessary part of life.

I’ve never regretted not indoctrinating my kids in my beliefs. (And yes I sent them to religious education when they asked if they could go.) Home schooling is a form of child abuse, IMO. I’m a big believer in non-sectarian public education.

Like you and Polycarp and others here, I expressed similar views in Post #414. I have the impression that that is typical of most Liberal Christians. It seems to be common here at the Dope.

I can understand your taking offense at religious intrusion into state sponsored events. (I would not include a funeral no matter what the religious status of the deceased.) And I can understand how offensive it is when someone tries to cram their beliefs down your throat or into your lifestyle. I’m not sure what you mean by “superior.” Each of us thinks we’re right or we wouldn’t believe as we do. Some of us seem more certain than others.

But what I don’t understand is why someone else’s speaking confidently in public about her or his beliefs would make you feel marginalized. That is a horrible way to feel, but I don’t understand what one has to do with the other. You still have every right to speak your own beliefs and to feel confident about them. Don’t you feel that your beliefs are superior to a Christian’s?

By the way, I would not hesitate to deliver a eulogy for an atheist friend and to respect her wishes. It would not be necessary to bring up my own beliefs. I could easily talk about how she was the most giving friend of all. I once sent her a Christmas card that showed a market place with a sign that said “Cheeses of Nazareth.”

And I would not object to an atheist funeral for an atheist POTUS. (There is also the possibility that an atheist President’s family might not be concerned with the subject of her or his atheism during the funeral at all.)

My husband is an agnostic. We never argue at all over religion. Never.

I hope that you can learn not to feel marginalized by the beliefs and words of others.

Sez the guy who’s been telling Christians for weeks that his beliefs are superior to theirs.

(Please don’t spin this away, prr, the search engine works fine, and there are quotes galore. This is merely offered in an effort to get you to self reflect in the manner you’ve asked of others.)

Because they are. Atheism is perfectly sensible, and fits with the observed facts. Christianity is full of nonsensical, nasty beliefs, and has zero connection to the observed facts. Telling a Christian his or her beliefs are inferior to atheism is stating the obvious.

Me are Christian. Me am dumb. Me go fart now.

Wow, you blew the whole wad with that one. You’ve just disaligned yourself with science:

I found that those of my friends who were admirers of Marx, Freud, and Adler, were impressed by a number of points common to these theories, and especially by their apparent explanatory power. These theories appear to be able to explain practically everything that happened within the fields to which they referred. The study of any of them seemed to have the effect of an intellectual conversion or revelation, open your eyes to a new truth hidden from those not yet initiated. Once your eyes were thus opened you saw confirmed instances everywhere: the world was full of verifications of the theory. Whatever happened always confirmed it. Thus its truth appeared manifest; and unbelievers were clearly people who did not want to see the manifest truth; who refuse to see it, either because it was against their class interest, or because of their repressions which were still “un-analyzed” and crying aloud for treatment.

The most characteristic element in this situation seemed to me the incessant stream of confirmations, of observations which “verified” the theories in question; and this point was constantly emphasize by their adherents. A Marxist could not open a newspaper without finding on every page confirming evidence for his interpretation of history; not only in the news, but also in its presentation — which revealed the class bias of the paper — and especially of course what the paper did not say. The Freudian analysts emphasized that their theories were constantly verified by their “clinical observations.” As for Adler, I was much impressed by a personal experience. Once, in 1919, I reported to him a case which to me did not seem particularly Adlerian, but which he found no difficulty in analyzing in terms of his theory of inferiority feelings, Although he had not even seen the child. Slightly shocked, I asked him how he could be so sure. “Because of my thousandfold experience,” he replied; whereupon I could not help saying: “And with this new case, I suppose, your experience has become thousand-and-one-fold.”

— Karl Popper, Science as Falsification (emphasis mine)

Actually, what I’ve been telling Xians for years–decades, I’m sure–is that my beliefs are at least equal in legitimacy to theirs. That’s been mind-blowingly offensive enough. “B-b-b-but HOW DARE YOU? I’m a Christian, and everybody knows we’re the best people on the planet!”

What I feel, in my heart, is that yeah, sure, I think my beliefs are right and yours are wrong. But it’s sufficient usually to assert equalty. Equality blows Xians’ minds.

Also equality is the first step in eradiciating Xianity. Once people see that there’s no social or political edge in being atheist, the obvious appeal of atheism (moral and intellectual) will reach out to most nominal Xians.

I have no problem, btw, with specifying that Xians prefer not to think “about this issue.” I’m sure they think just fine when they switch their brains to the “ON” position, and will all make excellent atheists someday. But they have to make the choice–we don’t solicit converts.

Go play atheist for a day in public. Say it loud! You’re a heretic and you’re proud!

Disclaimer: Be prepared to lose lose acquaintances, job opportunities, possibly a couple friends, and be physically assaulted.