Calling people a liar in GD

[mswas]

I think this is one of the lowest tactics I have come across. In this thread Hamas Wins **FinnAgain **accused me of lying because I disagreed with his stance.

Now I admit I am not the most eloquent poster and I post long rambling posts that are difficult to parse, but I don’t lie in posts. I simply don’t have the motivation to lie. Sometimes I forget something I said, or I change my position on something, or I make a mistake and type something incorrectly without realizing it, but I don’t lie.

So what I do when being called a “Liar” is I shut down to meaningful conversation with my accuser, because if they think that I am a liar then any attempt by me to clarify what I said can be met with more accusations that I am a liar, and they can say that I am just backing down on what I said, so why should I bother trying to clarify my position to someone who thinks I am a liar, because they want to believe that I meant something the way they interpreted it and any attempt to disabuse them of this notion will only be met with further accusations.

In the thread in question it wasn’t an argument of fact, I never once disputed FinnAgain’s facts, I just disagreed with the conclusions he came to with them. When discussing wars, I don’t EVER put things in terms of the good guys or the bad guys, at least not in a serious discussion of it. I think of them in terms of conflicting interests.

I get a little tired of the haughty elitist attitude of posters here, and I admit that I can be haughty too, but it’s kind of a defensiveness more than anything. People don’t realize that this is an Internet Message Board and they take if FAR too seriously. If I want to be taken that seriously I’ll work to get published, and the work that I write seriously is of a different calibre than posts on a message board. I wish people here would have some more perspective about that, and stop acting like they are vying to be published in Foreign Affairs or something, because they’re not. We’re here looking for some interesting conversation and debate in an AMATEUR setting.

So certainly this will attract the usual suspects who take any chance to flame me that they possibly can, but I am pretty tired of seeing the term liar bandied about on these boards especially as vitriolically as **FinnAgain **likes to do. So I await my fan club, Big Ups to GIGObuster, Miller, Hamlet, KidChameleon et. al.

But accusations of lying are really fucking irritating especially because the stakes are so fucking low. I lie about why I was late so as not to get fired at a job, I don’t lie to win the respect of some electrons on a message board.

Erek

[Linty_Fresh]

Ordinarily, I’d agree with you, Erek, but every post I’ve read of yours points to the fact that you’re a fucking nutjob, so to hell with it. I don’t care if they call you Glinda, the Good Witch of the North.

:wally

[John_Mace]

@mswas

I think this is one of the lowest tactics I have come across. In this thread Hamas Wins **FinnAgain **accused me of lying because I disagreed with his stance.

You expect us to sift through 3 pages of posts to find the one where you think **Finn **called you a liar? Hows about you point us to the specific post. Or, hows about you report the post to a mod and have them issue a warning.

[kidchameleon]

@mswas

So I await my fan club, Big Ups to GIGObuster, Miller, Hamlet, KidChameleon et. al.

Fourth? Man, I’m getting lazy or something.

Dude, I only flame you when you are wrong and can’t back up your assertations. Like John Mace says, a little more direction and I’ll make an educated decision then.

[Rysdad]

@mswas

ISo what I do when being called a “Liar” is I shut down to meaningful conversation with my accuser, because if they think that I am a liar then any attempt by me to clarify what I said can be met with more accusations that I am a liar, and they can say that I am just backing down on what I said, so why should I bother trying to clarify my position to someone who thinks I am a liar, because they want to believe that I meant something the way they interpreted it and any attempt to disabuse them of this notion will only be met with further accusations.

Ho. Lee. Fuck. I’ve rarely seen a more tortuous, convoluted sentence.

But here’s a solution to your entire problem: Don’t lie.

“I shut down to meaningful conversation with my accuser…”

Rat rubbish.

[El_Kabong]

Dude, we are (mostly) adults here and if we happen to read one of your no doubt very important messages and someone has accused you of being a liar, we are capable of figuring out for ourselves whether the accusation is worth considering or not. No further action is necessary.

In other words, lighten up, Francis.

@mswas

People don’t realize that this is an Internet Message Board and they take if FAR too seriously.

Funny, the first thing I thought when I saw the thread title was “Geez, this guy is taking this place WAY too seriously.”

Now I admit I am not the most eloquent poster and I post long rambling posts that are difficult to parse

Good. Now do better.

[Lissa]

@mswas

I get a little tired of the haughty elitist attitude of posters here, and I admit that I can be haughty too, but it’s kind of a defensiveness more than anything. People don’t realize that this is an Internet Message Board and they take if FAR too seriously. If I want to be taken that seriously I’ll work to get published, and the work that I write seriously is of a different calibre than posts on a message board. I wish people here would have some more perspective about that, and stop acting like they are vying to be published in Foreign Affairs or something, because they’re not. We’re here looking for some interesting conversation and debate in an AMATEUR setting.

I think our standards are just about right. This ain’t the kiddie pool.

This is supposed to be a board of intelligent people having intelligent debates. If that has an element of elitism, so be it. We’re an inclusive bunch, embracing all socio-economic and ethnic groups, faiths and creeds, but we do discriminate based on intelligence. As well we should. This is a place where fools are not only suffered with ill grace, but are likely eviscerated by a razor wit to the guffaws of fellow smart-asses.

We’re a skeptical bunch, and I think it’s awesome. Our world needs more of them-- the gullibility and intellectual apathy of the American people is its major downfall. We Dopers abhor taking things on faith, or espousing a view simply based on personal opinion. We want facts, dammit, not feelings. We want open minds, not those who are willingly blind.

Anyone who thinks oue standards of proof are too vigorous should go join one of the kajillion softer boards where one can spew whatever bullshit comes to mind and get nothing but support for it.

[mswas]

@El_Kabong

Funny, the first thing I thought when I saw the thread title was “Geez, this guy is taking this place WAY too seriously.”

Touche
John Mace He called me a liar in 70% of the posts directed at me in that thread.

Here you go:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7044835&highlight=liar#post7044835

[mswas]

@Lissa

I think our standards are just about right. This ain’t the kiddie pool.

This is supposed to be a board of intelligent people having intelligent debates. If that has an element of elitism, so be it. We’re an inclusive bunch, embracing all socio-economic and ethnic groups, faiths and creeds, but we do discriminate based on intelligence. As well we should. This is a place where fools are not only suffered with ill grace, but are likely eviscerated by a razor wit to the guffaws of fellow smart-asses.

Yeah except most of the people here aren’t as smart as they think they are.

We’re a skeptical bunch, and I think it’s awesome. Our world needs more of them-- the gullibility and intellectual apathy of the American people is its major downfall. We Dopers abhor taking things on faith, or espousing a view simply based on personal opinion. We want facts, dammit, not feelings. We want open minds, not those who are willingly blind.

I dunno, I see as much groupthink here as I see anywhere else.

Anyone who thinks oue standards of proof are too vigorous should go join one of the kajillion softer boards where one can spew whatever bullshit comes to mind and get nothing but support for it.

I thought this board was about fighting ignorance. How do you propose to fight the ignorance of someone you have made too afraid to post by the constant abuse they see while lurking here?

Anyway you have intellectual standards that most people you being one do not live up to, and very low standards for civility.

Basically this message board is where the hoi polloi goes to feel special. Ever been to a dopefest? Most of the people that attend them are social midgets, I’ve never been in a room with more guys that don’t know how to handle comport themselves with the opposite sex in my life. Uninvited groping seemed to be a fairly common occurence at the few that I checked out.

[kidchameleon]

@mswas

Ever been to a dopefest? Most of the people that attend them are social midgets, I’ve never been in a room with more guys that don’t know how to handle comport themselves with the opposite sex in my life. Uninvited groping seemed to be a fairly common occurence at the few that I checked out.

Chachi, with your history, why are you even going there?

[GIGObuster]

Part of this was on the pit, but it came after **mswas ** pretended to know what Newton really did in GD:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6995549&postcount=259

You my friend are no skeptic, no matter how fashionable you may find skepticism.

How do you know that Newton’s Alchemical pursuits were fruitless? Or should I consult “The Modern World.”?

You are just regurgitating shit you don’t really understand. I have yet to see you ever supply a cite. It’s amazing that nobody but me seems to care that you can’t come up with a cite if you had a gun to your head. Maybe it’s because they have just accepted that you are full of it. Most of the time I ignore you but once in a while you just supremely irritate me.

Please take a cue from those atheists that are far more knowledgeable than you and actually adhere to the intellectual ideals that you find fashionable.

Erek

My reply was ignored in an act he later admited was unskeptical:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6996053&postcount=262

But then in the pit:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7010876&postcount=105

**Voyager ** And what I am trying to say to you, is that Isaac Newton lived at the time when Alchemy was turning into Chemistry, and that he was on the cusp of what allows you to take your pedantic and arrogant attitude. So judging him by the same criteria that you would judge a modern chemist who practices alchemy is your stupidity not his. Also, I would be interested to find out if you know anything at all about alchemy besides anecdotes of other people telling you it’s BS, and some other bullshit about turning lead into gold. I don’t know much about alchemy myself so I couldn’t comment. However, what I am saying is that a scientists failed experiments are as essential to his successes, as are his successful ones. He found out what works, and what doesn’t, and you enjoy the fruits of that labor now, because you are able to scoff at his failures because he tried and failed a few hundred years before your Daddy came in your Mommy and transmuted her egg into your narrowminded ass. So because he failed at it you and your contemporaries don’t have to repeat those experiments, thanks to him. You keep judging him by modern criteria, and yet it is ME that is tone deaf to science.

Let me see if I can spell it out for you. Newton lived at the time where they debunked alchemy, and was instrumental in the development of what you know of as science today. So the opinion that you were provided that you clearly haven’t given much thought to, was provided in part by Isaac Newton.

You are such a fool.

Erek

And he is such a liar:

I replied then that:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7011648&postcount=113

From the link posted by Left Hand of Dorkness in page one of this thread:

In Europe, alchemy led to the discovery of manufacture of amalgams and advances in many other chemical processes and the apparatus required for them. Eventually, by the 16th Century, the alchemists in Europe had separated into two groups.

The first group focussed on the discovery of new compounds and their reactions - leading to what is now the science of chemistry.

The second continued to look at the more spiritual, metaphysical side of alchemy, continuing the search for immortality and the transmutation of base metals into gold.
This led to the modern day idea of alchemy.

Now, from what century Newton was from?

Looks like it is hard to figure that out… for a mystic it seems. Let us check the year Newton was born: 1643… Well, that was the middle of the merry olde 17th century! This is why I remarked earlier that Newton followed the wrong road.

By the time Newton was growing metal trees, the first group was already getting into chemistry. Newton did hide or code his alchemy research! Newton was not part even of the debunking of alchemy.

Notice that **mswas ** ignored on purpose what historians found recently about the alchemy of Newton in the other thread, just another clear example of misinformation and bad faith from mswas.

[Skywatcher]

@John Mace

You expect us to sift through 3 pages of posts to find the one where you think **Finn **called you a liar?

I think one sould read their entire conversation, which appears to start on page 2 (post #94), with particular attention paid to post #129.

Looks to me like Finn is saying mswas has been posting lies not because they disagree but rather that mswas repeatedly accused Finn of making kneejerk responses and failed to fulfill Finn’s requests of cites.

Actually, the first use of “liar” in relation to mswas was…from mswas (post #126) !

[Lissa]

@mswas

Yeah except most of the people here aren’t as smart as they think they are.

The same is true for the general population. So, what?

I dunno, I see as much groupthink here as I see anywhere else.

If the groupthink you’re refering to is adherence to scientific method, you’re right.

I thought this board was about fighting ignorance. How do you propose to fight the ignorance of someone you have made too afraid to post by the constant abuse they see while lurking here?

No one is ever abused for asking sincere questions and seeking knowledge. People are abused for stubbornly clinging to disproved notions. As well they should be. Anyone who has that sort of mentality should be discouraged from posting. We don’t want them.

Anyway you have intellectual standards that most people you being one do not live up to, and very low standards for civility.

Perhaps. I’m willing to call a fool a fool, and if that’s uncivil, so be it. I try not to become personal in debates, but I have let my irritation overcome my manners. I do try to apologize if I have crossed a line. But just becase I try to avoid stooping to personal insults doesn’t mean I won’t tear apart the person’s ideas. I think most of us are mature enough to know the difference.

Basically this message board is where the hoi polloi goes to feel special.

Not for me. For me, it’s a place I come to for intelligent debate on interesting topics, since, besides my husband, I don’t know any people in real life who are interested. If I get to feel smart because I know the answer to a question, how is that a bad thing?

Ever been to a dopefest?

Nope.

Most of the people that attend them are social midgets, I’ve never been in a room with more guys that don’t know how to handle comport themselves with the opposite sex in my life. Uninvited groping seemed to be a fairly common occurence at the few that I checked out.

So, some of us are jerks. You’ll find the same in the general population.

I’m not a social butterfly, but I don’t see how that makes me “wrong.” I simply don’t prefer to spend my time in small talk about people’s kids, bills, or gossip about who’s sleeping with whom. Social maladaption? Possibly, but I really don’t care.

[Linty_Fresh]

I finally wised up and tuned this joker out after he bragged about encouraging suicide in people who want to kill themselves. . Suddenly, there just didn’t seem to be any point in talking to him anymore.

[John_Mace]

@mswas

Touche
John Mace He called me a liar in 70% of the posts directed at me in that thread.

Here you go:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7044835&highlight=liar#post7044835

Well, he really said you were either ignorant or lying. I tend to agree, but then this is the Pit and I can say that. He got slapped by a mod… what else do you want?

[FinnAgain]

Yay, I’ve been Pitted! I’ve finally made it!

By the way, mswas, you are a liar. You were lying when you claimed that I had “[labeled] all Palestinians as terrorists” when I never said any such thing, ever, anywhere. In any thread. Ever.

I don’t think my continued presence should be required in this thread, especially mswas really isn’t worth responding to. But I’ve now put in my token appearance, and I can have a beer in celebration of finally being Pitted.

Whee!

P.S.

Lute, spot on.

John Mace, yes, in some cases it was a question of being ignorant or lying. After being shown cites that proved him wrong, the odds of him being dishonest by repeating the same claims rose. In others, like when he claimed I had ‘labeled all Pastinians as terrorists’ he was simply lying through his teeth.

[Skywatcher]

@FinnAgain

By the way, mswas, you are a liar. You were lying when you claimed that I had “[labeled] all Palestinians as terrorists” when I never said any such thing, ever, anywhere. In any thread. Ever.

I was going to include “misrepresenting your position” but I wasn’t sure about that one.

[Guinastasia]

@Linty Fresh

I finally wised up and tuned this joker out after he bragged about encouraging suicide in people who want to kill themselves. . Suddenly, there just didn’t seem to be any point in talking to him anymore.

Holy fuck, what a sick bastard.

[Cervaise]

@mswas

I don’t lie in posts. I simply don’t have the motivation to lie.

More accurately, you don’t have the intellectual fortitude to know whether or not the things you say are true or not.

Case in point is that stupid digression where you claimed that the statistics behind population sampling and polling were groundless, and that there was no way to draw reliable conclusions from a small group of people unless the small group scaled up relative to the overall population.

A bunch of people pointed at you and laughed.

You restated your ignorant nonsense, even more aggressively.

Other, more patient people took the time to point out exactly how and why you didn’t have a fucking clue what the fuck you were fucking talking about.

Then you backed down.

And you didn’t apologize to anybody.

From my point of view, “liar” is not a perfect label for someone who apparently doesn’t give a shit whether or not the crap spewing from their mouth (or fingers) bears any relationship whatsoever to reality… but it’ll do in your case.

[SisterCoyote]

@mswas

Ever been to a dopefest?

Yes, a couple.

@mswas

Most of the people that attend them are social midgets, I’ve never been in a room with more guys that don’t know how to handle comport themselves with the opposite sex in my life. Uninvited groping seemed to be a fairly common occurence at the few that I checked out.

Dammit! I miss out on all the fun.

Seriously. I’ve been to two and a half dopefests, and I can’t recall a single incident of uninvited groping at either.