Polycarp:
Faith is one of His gifts, and He gives it when and where He will.
I think the point is that he gives this “gift” unfairly and unjustly, which it seems you admitted when you said what Julie wrote was the truth. Will you explicitly admit that god is unfair and unjust? Why would you worship such a god? Lets see some of that fancy footwork that Julie mentioned.
cutting the damn knot
Can anyone become a Christian?
Not yet, but eventually.
Is God or life fair or just?
Seemingly not yet, but eventually all will be redeemed.
Many can and do become faithful, flawed but still striving, Christians (one who trusts Jesus is God’s Son risen from the dead & surrenders to/embraces Him as Lord & Savior).
Many others are called & enabled to become Christians but neglect or refuse it or fall away or worst of all, claim it hypocritically. (These will get the harshest judgement.)
Many others would become Christians but due to whatever circumstances (lack of opportunity or a true witness or whatever)
are unable to.
And finally, many have little to no opportunity nor would they take it if given.
All will be judged accordingly- according to their ability & willingness to trust God, to embrace Jesus Christ, to treat others with either basic decency or extraordinary compassion. All come from God thru Christ, all return to God thru Christ, and in that returning have whatever is contrary to God/Jesus’s Goodness & Fairness burned out & whatever remains transformed into God’s children. It will be in that process that all who could become Christians will be given opportunity & those who would never prove themselves incorrigible (if indeed there be any)- I hope that in the End. all who see God/Jesus in Their full Love & Justice will gladly embrace Them. It may be that some consider that the most horrid Hell of all.
huh?
I had to re-read duckster’s post a few times to make sure I wasn’t on crack…
Originally posted by Duckster
Yes, the majority of the world’s population is not Christian. However, to assume they are not Christian because they do not believe Jesus was resurrected predisposes the belief of Jesus and his teachings. If you have not been exposed to Jesus and his teachings, you cannot have knowledge about his resurrection to not believe it.
I thought this was obvious, but… if you don’t believe something, and aren’t unsure, then clearly you disbelieve it. If I’ve been taught that only apricots are juicy, and nobody ever told me that oranges are juicy, then I do not believe that oranges are juicy.
If no missionaries ever came to my fishing village to save us poor benighten heathens, then I don’t believe that Jesus died for me yet. Simple.
I think my origina question is the problem here. I should have asked, can everyone be saved through Christ. Or will everyone be saved through Christ.
My original question, too.
You have no idea how God chooses to give someone Grace! Who ever said that being put in a certain situation is a test by God? That’s a human assumption. It may be that failing a certain faith test situation isn’t about whether you will receive God’s Grace, but just to push you to do more with what you’re given.
I never said that you have to be of a certain religion to receive God’s Grace, so being born into a different culture that may believe in different gods would not hinder you.
You’re making a bunch of assumptions that aren’t even relivant. It isn’t about what we’re given here on earth, it’s about what we do with what we’re given!! There’s no fancy footwork here or any odd explanations, just doing what’s right considering your own situations. Also, many believe in a forgiving God who does not condemn you just because of few mistakes or even many.
The arguments to join a particular religion to be saved are baseless and foolish. Nothing in the Bible about Jesus’ teachings says anything about having to follow a particular religion for salvation. He forgave many sinners and welcomed everyone.
My whole point is that you cannot know what God has intended for you. It’s impossible to state that someone will absolutely receive God’s Grace because we aren’t capable of knowing his decisions. All we can do is the best with what we’re given. Mother Teresa once said that God never asked her to do more than I’m capable of doing.
“It is not how much we do, but how much love we put in the doing.
It is not how much we give, but how much love we put in the giving.”
We don’t know that everyone will be saved through Christ, but we do know that everyone can be saved through Him.
There’s nothing in Jesus’ teachings that says you must be of a certain religion to be saved. But there are a great many recordings of Jesus reaching out to people outside of the Jewish faith and to “sinners” within the faith. He died for everyone, not just the descendents of Abraham and converters to certain religions.
You’re right, I don’t. And that is the problem.
If God can choose to withhold grace from me for things out of my control, then God is really just like a kid teasing an animal.
All you’re saying is that God is unknowable. What I’m saying is that once you say God is unknowable, things are out of my control. I cannot be saved of my own “free will.”
Now, if you’re okay with things not being fair, then that’s fine. You won’t have any problem with this. But if you want to claim that God is fair, then it does take some explaining. Why do terrible things happen to good people? Why do terrible things happen to people who haven’t had a chance to demonstrate if they are good or not? Why does God allow children to be born into cultures that do not believe in him? Why does God allow me, in my exercising my will, to cut short your life? What does being a victim of murder reveal about your character? Nothing.
If we’re going to be held to account, it had damned well only be for things that are within our control. Otherwise, it’s arbitrary and, yes, unfair.
Julie
I’m so far from being a Bible scholar that it isn’t even funny, but I think I remember Jesus claiming that he is the way to salvation. IF so, how does a Wiccan (for example) get saved?
Julie
Well, if you follow C. S. Lewis’s sense of theology, then if you Do The Right Thing it doesn’t matter whose names you use when you’re doing it, and if you Do The Wrong Thing it doesn’t matter if you invoke the name of Jesus and quote Scripture while you’re doing it.
Basically, that interpretation is that if The Way is Jesus, then doing as he would have wanted you to do is the critical part, not the affixing his name to it. And a Wiccan is just as capable of doing correct acts by that standard as any Christian; perhaps more so, if the precepts of Wicca make it easier for that person to engage in that sort of behaviour than the precepts of Christianity would. (That isn’t entirely hypothetical; behaving according to the precepts of my religion make me a better Christian by that standard than the precepts of Christianity do.)
Good question. Following the teachings of Jesus is the way to salvation, but that does not mean that you must be of a certain religion to follow His teachings or path. In fact, you may actually be following His teachings without knowing them directly.
For example, Jesus taught us to love each other (Love thy neighbor) and to turn the other cheek. A Wiccan has every ability to do these things, but does not need to have knowledge of Jesus’ teachings to do so. The Wiccan is still be good regardless of religion. A great example is the parable of the Good Samaritan. For centuries the Jewish people thought of Samaritans and people of some other religions/cultures to be evil and below them. But in Jesus’ story, it was only the Samaritan that actually did the right thing, not the other two Jewish people who passed the beaten man. This parable was told to help explain that you do not have to be Jewish or any other religion in order to do the right thing.
Actually not knowing exactly how God doles out judgement does not absolve us of trying to receive His Grace. In order to have a chance to receive God’s Grace, we need to make every effort to our ability to do so. As I quoted Mother Theresa saying, God does not ask you to do more than you are capable of doing. We are limited by the knowledge we receive and the life that we are given. It’s what we choose to do with what we’re given that matters.
I’ve never stated that anyone is held accountable for things out of their control. If that is the case, then you are right that it is unfair.
As for bad things happening to good people, that will always be an issue. Try reading the Book of Job in the Bible. In this book, Job is a very pious follower and believer in God. Terrible things happen to Job throughout his life, but he never loses his faith. He is tested even with the death of loved ones, but he knows that it was not because he’s been a bad person and continues to believe in God.
The way I try to make sense of it is that only through challenge can we truly have achievement. If everything was good and perfect for everyone, then being good and perfect would be easy and meaningless. How we act and come out of bad and difficult times really determines a person’s character. Without those bad things that happen, being good and generous is easy.
Your next point about people being born into cultures that don’t believe in Him has a similar response. If everyone knew and believed in God, it would be easy to have faith. Also, I don’t believe that you have to know or follow particular religions to be saved. We couldn’t truly have free will if God designed it for everyone to follow Him.
As for being able to murder me, that follows along the lines of having free will. By having free will, we have the ability to choose sin. The act of you killing me doesn’t necessarily say anything about me, but it might, depending upon my choices that may lead up to that act. It is my actions/decisions that I will be judged on, not your action to kill me.
Bobby Roberts:
We don’t know that everyone will be saved through Christ, but we do know that everyone can be saved through Him.
How do you know this?
That’s exactly my point. God sets up an uneven playing field, and then complains that people don’t “find” him? If God wanted to be found, an omnipotent being sure as hell could be found. Instead, he hides.
It isn’t that “terrible things happen to Job.” God deliberately torments Job. Sure, Job still believes in God. But if there are “Jobs” who stop believing in God because their lives are filled with torment, and it turns out that God himself is the one doing it, then how is it that person’s fault? Do you blame a dog for biting at you if you kick it every day? Is the dog supposed to love you? What a great “person” this biblical God is!
Instead, he designs certain, favored people to follow him. Are you saying believers don’t have free will?
Julie
Keep in mind that the Book of Job was written in a time period in which one of the major debates in Judaism was “Does material success indicate closeness to God?” Basically, it was a lampoon of the opposing position. “If one’s godliness can be judged by one’s worldly goods and success, then. . . .”
I wish I could remember which of my books of exegesis I picked that out of so I could give a cite. 
actually satan tormented Job. God allowed the test to see if Job only loved God becouse of his prosperous life. afterward God gave Job twice what he had before the incedent though. Most of Job’s life was pretty good. blessed up till he was tested, and lived for a hundred and forty years after the test with twice the blessings.
netscape 6
actually satan tormented Job. God allowed the test to see if Job only loved God becouse of his prosperous life.
God brought up the idea to Satan “have you considered my servant Job,” having perfect omniscience about what would come next. Never mind that god allegedly created Satan too.
*afterward God gave Job twice what he had before the incedent though. Most of Job’s life was pretty good. blessed up till he was tested, and lived for a hundred and forty years after the test with twice the blessings. *
Yeah, all turned out fine and dandy from Job’s perspective. Perhaps you should try looking at it from the perspective of his kids, who god allowed to be murdered.
There is a lot of other screwed up stuff in that particular book but that was all hashed out in an earlier thread.
Where is your basis for God complaining that people don’t find him?
Why are these people favored? What takes away their free will to choose what they’ve been taught over something else?
I think you’ve been confusing salvation or receiving God’s Grace with believing in God. You’re right that it is not fair to expect everyone to have the same beliefs. I’ve stated that believing, or not believing, in a specific religion does not mean you’ll receive God’s Grace.
It may be that these favored people you speak of won’t end up receiving God’s Grace. Upon being judged God may decide that these people were given a lot to do good, but did not do much with those gifts. But some others who did less on earth but were given less may receive His Grace because they did what they could with what they were given.
Once again, it’s not about what you’re given, it’s about what you do with what you’re given.
This is the basis of my faith and belief in God. Jesus died on the cross to save us from original sin and allow everyone to receive God’s Grace and enter into His Kingdom of Heaven. This is the basic precept of Christianity that is being discussed here.