Bobby Robert:
This is the basis of my faith and belief in God. Jesus died on the cross to save us from original sin and allow everyone to receive God’s Grace and enter into His Kingdom of Heaven. This is the basic precept of Christianity that is being discussed here.
Why is this the basis of your faith? Is it because it is in the bible or do you have other sources for your assertions?
If you want to argue the basic precepts of Christianity, then you probably should start another thread. My understanding on this thread is that we’ve been discussing what Christian religions believe, not why they have these beliefs.
So a point of order here is that the basic precept of Christianity is that Jesus died to save us from original sin and allow everyone to receive God’s Grace and enter into His Kingdom of Heaven.
Nitpick: A basic precept of Western Christianity. Original sin is not a tenet of the Eastern Church.
Anyone can become a “Christian”…sadly though not every one who calls themselves one is one.
It’s a common misconception that the only requirement to being one is to call yourself one. Its akin to
Me dressing up as a doctor, and calling myself a doctor…am I really a doctor then?..Hardly…by the same
token being one, hardly qualifies one for perfection…since we all constantly make mistake…it also does not
make a person any better than anyone else…those that carry on with such an air have a little bit of problem
With the words pride and humility…and Dorothy, pay no attention to the person behind the current…Oz has
Spoken.
so you believe a bank robber’s mother is responsable for the robbery, or if you save someone’s life your responsable for what they do after that? satan is responsable for satan’s actions.
well Job’s children, while not blameless like Job sound fine enough. Job did regularly sacrifice on thier be half. i bet they went strait to Abraham’s boosum to be comferted till Jesus’s birth and go to heaven.
**
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Bobby Roberts:
If you want to argue the basic precepts of Christianity, then you probably should start another thread. My understanding on this thread is that we’ve been discussing what Christian religions believe, not why they have these beliefs.
I find very little in common between what different Christians believe, and how they decide what they believe. Some take the bible as god’s word, some just make it up as they go along and just give lip service to the bible. Right now I have no idea where you fall in this and as such don’t have much of a way to direct an argument.
So a point of order here is that the basic precept of Christianity is that Jesus died to save us from original sin and allow everyone to receive God’s Grace and enter into His Kingdom of Heaven.
I imagine you got this from the bible, or hearsay from someone who read the bible. If however, you have read the bible in full you should be aware that not everyone goes to heaven or will receive god’s “grace.” In fact if the bible is to be believed lots of people won’t and again according to the bible it is not up to the people to choose but rather god who does the choosing. Since god chooses rascals who admittedly don’t deserve it (see Polycarp’s post) he is unfair and unjust. This is the opposite of Mr. Love that some Christians try to make him out to be.
Why would an omniscient God have to conduct a test to “see” if Job loved him? Wouldn’t God already know Job’s heart without a test?
God knew before he created Satan that Satan would be evil. Therefore God chose to create evil. He could have just as easily chosen not to create evil or to have created a differeent angel altogether.
netscape 6:
so you believe a bank robber’s mother is responsable for the robbery, or if you save someone’s life your responsable for what they do after that? satan is responsable for satan’s actions.
Let’s take it up a notch. If Hitler’s mother had perfect knowledge of what her future son was going to do and had the choice of bearing him or not, then yes I think she would be to a large degree responsible for what he did. If she did not know what he would do, and in reality I’m sure she didn’t, then her responsibility would be significantly diminished if not abolished. God allegedly knows all that would transpire from his creations (unless you think he’s not omniscient) and as such bears the responsibility for them, which is why your analogy sucks.
well Job’s children, while not blameless like Job sound fine enough. Job did regularly sacrifice on thier be half. i bet they went strait to Abraham’s boosum to be comferted till Jesus’s birth and go to heaven.
Ahh, that’s so nice. I assume that’s why you encourage your kids talk to strangers, not wear seatbelts, and cross the street without looking. Heck why not drown them in a bathtub yourself as singing in heaven with the pretty angels must be so much better than this evil world. Do you really believe this way or is that just where you were willing to take the argument to avoid admitting god’s unfair?
If you have a problem with me, badchad, the administration of this board does provide a forum in which you can express it. Kindly take your complaints there.
Polycarp:
If you have a problem with me, badchad, the administration of this board does provide a forum in which you can express it. Kindly take your complaints there.
I’m just going off the framework of argument you posted earlier Polycarp. Remember when you wrote this:
*I know that I’ve changed, dramatically, and become a much more pleasant person to associate with, in the years since I had my conversion experience. (I’m not particularly fond of the first few months of that – imagine Joe Cool at his most irritable and dogmatic, and multiply by ten!
Believe me, you would not have liked the old me – combine the worst elements of the personalities of TheRyan, His4Ever, and Ryan_liam (none of whom I’m calling names, just identifying personality characteristics by reference to), and you’d have the person I was.*
Or are you now implying that you weren’t a rascal and did deserve salvation?
Remember, anger’s a sin.
Come to think of it, I do have a problem with the way you duck out of a conversation just when it’s getting good, or should we say bad from your perspective.
Ok, fair enough. I have read through the Bible and taken a few theology courses in college. Along with that I’ve been a practicing Catholic my whole life and help to lead youth ministry classes at my church.
As for you point about not everyone receiving God’s Grace, I think you missed some of the things I’ve said in this thread. My point has been that Jesus allowed is that everyone can receive God’s Grace, but that does not mean everyone will receive His Grace.
I entered this discussion because of the notion of not having a fair life on earth equates to not having a fair chance to receive God’s Grace, which I disagree with. The Bible says that the last shall be first. It’s what you do with what you’re given that matters – it’s not about what you’re given. If you decide to invest your talents, then you will be rewarded. But you will not be awarded for burying your talents, no matter how small or few.
To become a Christian, the first thing you need is the ability to think illogically or, preferably, to not think at all. The second thing you need is docility, to be able to follow a leader no matter what they do or say - the image of ‘Christians as sheep’ is quite accurate.
badchad, from the way you talk, it sounds like you’re a Calvinist, am I right or wrong? Do you believe that God only picks certain people to be saved and Jesus only died for those certain people? Just wanting some clarification. FTR, I don’t share that belief. I believe Jesus died for everybody and all who wish to come, may come. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 I believe in God’s foreknowledge, not predestination. I believe we do the choosing. God has graciously provided the way, it’s up to us whether to take it. Course, that’s another thing you could debate on forever with both sides thinking they’re right.
Am I mistaken in what I seem to be hearing from you? If so, correct me please.
My question is what happens to whosoever believeth not?
Julie
Well, my post was directed toward badchad and wasn’t intended to get into this. Just what the verse implies: whosoever believeth should not perish. Indicating that those who don’t believe do perish. There’s also Mark 16:16 which says He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
As I said, I had a question for badchad about calvinism. I don’t wish to start a firestorm, I’m simply trying to answer your question with what the Bible says. I know many here believe differently.
Why should we believe God? He lied to Adam & Eve, when he told them they would perish if they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, and they did not.
His4Ever,
FYI, badchad is an atheist. He’s just framing his argument rhetorically.
[quote]
He lied to Adam & Eve, when he told them they would perish if they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, and they did not.[/auote]
Wait, Adam and Eve are still alive?
Bobby Roberts:
As for you point about not everyone receiving God’s Grace, I think you missed some of the things I’ve said in this thread. My point has been that Jesus allowed is that everyone can receive God’s Grace, but that does not mean everyone will receive His Grace.
I suppose in theory everyone can receive god’s grace but as you say many of them don’t. Whether they could or not is irrelevant to my argument just that they don’t is enough. It seems clear from biblical verses (if you take that as god’s word or not I haven’t been able to establish) that we can’t force god to give us this grace but rather he does the deciding, and since Christians seem to be in consensus with the fact that nobody deserves it, those who get it are getting it unfairly, thus contradicting the notion of a fair and just god.
I entered this discussion because of the notion of not having a fair life on earth equates to not having a fair chance to receive God’s Grace, which I disagree with.
I don’t think having a fair life is what other posters were talking about, rather just the fair chance at receiving salvation. If you are born in Afghanistan to a Muslim family then your chance of receiving god’s grace (assuming god is of the Christian variety) is severely diminished, through no fault of your own, which as noted above just isn’t fair.
His4ever:
badchad, from the way you talk, it sounds like you’re a Calvinist, am I right or wrong? Do you believe that God only picks certain people to be saved and Jesus only died for those certain people?
As Diogenes stated I’m an atheist (sorry). I don’t know much about the Calvinists other than what others have written on this board in that they believe in predestination. As such I would think that all Christians that hold to a literal interpretation of the bible would have to believe that.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I think that is what much of this thread is all about. I don’t believe in god. I can’t will myself to believe anymore than you can will yourself not to. I started out Christian but my life experiences have led me to a point where believing in god, particularly of the Christian variety is impossible. I do think it would be unfair for me to burn in an eternal lake of fire considering my life experiences which have led to my disbelief were not chosen by me. Yeah, I know that according to Christian doctrine we all deserve hell, so as such I then don’t think it fair that others undeservingly get to go to eternal paradise just because the theologians they came into contact with were more convincing.
I believe in God’s foreknowledge, not predestination. I believe we do the choosing.
A lot of people believe the same. I used to make the argument that foreknowledge and predestination were the same and logically had to be the same. I still believe that but have found it simpler just to point out that the bible actually uses the term predestinate, making the point moot for those who accept the bible as inerrant.
Romans 8: 29-30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 1: 4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the pleasure of his will.
Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.
Also His4ever, though I’m disagreeing with you, I have decided that I like you, if for no other reason that I find your views more internally consistent than certain “liberal Christians” who have developed a following on this board by telling people what they want to hear while making up their religion as they go along yet still wanting to call it Christianity.