Can anyone become a Christian?

Great Debates
81

Sorry, badchad, for some reason I thought you were a Christian. :smack: Thanks for saying the above and I agree with the last part of your statement about some telling people what they want to hear and making up their own religion wanting to call it Christianity. Not just on this board, but everywhere in real life. The lines are becoming very blurred and those who are conservative, taking the Bible for what it says and standing by it are considered by many to be outdated, behind the times, ignorant, etc. Anyone can pick and choose from all kinds of religions (cafeteria style) and put it together and call it Christianity, but in my view it is not Christianity. Reminds me of someone on another board who calls himself a Christian, gnostic, wiccan, zoroatrian, etc. or somthing like that. He has a whole string of names but to me, it’s not Christian. Makes me think of this scriptures.

Galations 1:6-9 - I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

82

There’s more than one kind of perishing. Adam and Eve did die, they died spiritually and their bodies began to age and decay. God isn’t the liar, the devil is.

Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Psalm 31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

Romans 2:1 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

1 Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayes know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Of course, what this says won’t mean a thing to those who don’t believe it. If you want to believe God is a liar, I can’t stop you.

83

Yes anyone can become a Christian.

For God so loved the world that he gave his Son for the world, that they might be saved,
The word also says many are called and few are chosen.
God calls many into His family but it is our choice to make. God will not force anyone to be saved. But He will give us all that we need to make that decision to serve and love.
Many are called but out of the called only a few wll really accept God’s plan of salvation. God freely gives and we can freely receive, it up to us where we want our spirit to spend eternity.
Oh taste and see for yourselves that all that God has to offer us is good. But you have to taste God’s goodness for yourself no one can do that for you. His word will lead you to the waters of life, but its up to you to drink of it.
Be Blessed

84

MoronosaurusRex, in two hours, I’ll be serving as chalicist in my church, a church which I think has a higher than average percentage of engineers in the congregation. I’m also a member of Mensa and a good programmer. “Docile” is one of the words which is least likely to describe me, and I’ve argued with several of the priests I’ve had over the years. While some Christians may indeed be incapable of logical thought or need to follow leader, that doesn’t apply to all Christians any more than it does to all Atheists, Jews, Wiccans, agnostics, or followers of any other set of beliefs.

I’m usually told I fall into the “liberal Christians” camp because my focus on my religion is rather different from His4Ever’s. While there are still things within my religion which I’m wrestling with and which I don’t know the answers to, let me give you the core of my belief system. In Matthew 23:36, the Pharisees asked Christ, “Master, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Christ’s answer is that passage I’ve quoted so many times I should keep it on file for copying and pasting into threads.

I see this as a clear and obvious question and a clear and obvious answer, something which is rarer than I’d like it to be in the Bible. For me, the ultimate test of any action and any thought is how does it measure up against these two commandments. If an action or thought violates one of these two commandments, it is a sin. That includes getting fed up with someone who tailgates me on my way to church this morning and getting frustrated with a newbie fencer this afternoon, although I’m hoping neither will happen.

I’m not out to convert you. Quite frankly, in many ways, I sympathize with you, and I could easily have not been a Christian if it weren’t for one specific influence at a critical point in my youth. I just wanted to counter the arguments that Christians must be stupid and illogical, and that liberal Christians lack internal consistency. As I said, there are things I don’t know and don’t understand, and there are things I have no doubt I’ll be demanding that God explain at the end of all things. On the other hand, I don’t want a faith so small that human minds can encompass, explain, and prove every jot and tittle of it. Logic may be satisfying and soothing to the mind, but my soul required more.

Respectfully,
CJ

85

Siege:

I’m also a member of Mensa and a good programmer.

As a member of Mensa I would expect you to be able discern when you are making decisions based on sound reasoning vs. wishful thinking.

While some Christians may indeed be incapable of logical thought or need to follow leader, that doesn’t apply to all Christians any more than it does to all Atheists, Jews, Wiccans, agnostics, or followers of any other set of beliefs.

I would say that when someone uses faith rather than reason to evaluate a claim they are not using logical thought. While many theists can use logical thought, I don’t think they are using it in establishing the certainty of some rather critical issues in the various religious debates. Rather letting contradictory stuff, which would be used to disprove various premises in non-theological issues, being used to bolster faith.

While there are still things within my religion which I’m wrestling with and which I don’t know the answers to…

I’ll bet those things you are wrestling with are or at least should be rather crucial to establishing the existence of your god or whether he is worthy of worship or not. This is where I think MoronosaurusRex was correct to suggest that you either accept illogically or just try not to think about it. If you think about it enough and follow through to the logical conclusion you often end up not being a Christian anymore. I suppose you can remain in some half way state of cognitive dissonance until death, hoping that some magic being will make sense of it all.
*let me give you the core of my belief system…
quote:

Matthew 23:37-40
He answered, '“Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind.” That is the greatest commandment. It comes first. The second is like it: “Love your neighbour as yourself.” Everything in the Law and the prophets hangs on these two commandments."

I see this as a clear and obvious question and a clear and obvious answer, something which is rarer than I’d like it to be in the Bible.*

I could make the statement that out of over 1300 pages of contradictory text, you settle on a couple of statements as clear enough to follow, while mentioning that just about any other book addressing morality is likely to have a better record and rest my case there but…

The first statement about loving god above all else. Why should god being omnipotent and all care one whit about whether you love him? Is he that insecure? Is Jesus telling you to love the old testament predominant god of smiting which he claims to be pretty close to. Or is he saying just to love him himself which is pretty self aggrandizing? What does your reason say about all this?

The second “do unto others” phrase was stated by several other philosophers previously in history so it is hardly anything earth shattering in profundity.

Last why stop yourself at these two commandments of Jesus. He asked for a lot more? Is it just that these two are a lot easier than the others? Is it that you think Jesus was wrong when he stated some of the others? Any other rationalizations?

For me, the ultimate test of any action and any thought is how does it measure up against these two commandments. If an action or thought violates one of these two commandments, it is a sin.

What about divorcing a physically abusive spouse? What about saving for retirement?

I’m not out to convert you. Quite frankly, in many ways, I sympathize with you

I think you sympathize because you know my argument holds water, and is one that you continue to trouble yourself over.

and I could easily have not been a Christian if it weren’t for one specific influence at a critical point in my youth.

Might I take a guess? An unlikely but still possible occurrence that is bound to happen to just about anyone who lives on this earth long enough, but is rare enough to still make one go hmmm, yet is in no way specific to Jesus in particular but since he is the predominant godhead in our culture is still the god you attributed it to. Was I close?

I just wanted to counter the arguments that Christians must be stupid and illogical, and that liberal Christians lack internal consistency.

While I don’t think Christians are always stupid or illogical. In their thought processes with regards to belief in the supernatural I don’t think they are using their best cognitive resources. IMO the lack of internal consistency for the liberal Christians in particular, is their claim of being critical and reasonable about how they look at the bible, yet then going on to believe extraordinary claims based on evidence they have already determined to be unreliable.

Your post might have convinced me that you are good at IQ tests and computer programming but it has done nothing to convince me that you are not inconsistent in your belief system.

As I said, there are things I don’t know and don’t understand, and there are things I have no doubt I’ll be demanding that God explain at the end of all things.

This line of thinking would work for any god, many of which I doubt you believe in. Do you acknowledge this? If so do you still think it a reasonable way to bolster belief in your particular god?

86

Of course I acknowledge that. To do otherwise would be dishonest. As for whether it’s a reasonable way to bolster belief in my god, I would say that it is the least unreasonable way I know of. I don’t know what would work to convert you to Christianity, therefore, this seems to have the same minimal chance as anything. You’ve got no interest in converting in Christianity, I gather, just as I have no interest in becoming an Atheist. If asked about my beliefs, however, as in the OP for this thread, I will respond.

Your guess, however, is wrong. I don’t owe my Christianity to some Great Cosmic Life Changing ExperienceTM. I owe it to some folks in a small church in a small town who gave me the one place I could go in that town where I would not be insulted and where I could feel welcome and wanted. They gave me a home.

Look, you’re welcome to write me off as a nutcase. I’ve been hospitalized for clinical depression, albeit over a decade ago, and I still suffer from the disease. Therefore, technically, I am one. My religion is a crutch. I admit that. On the other hand, so are the friends whose presence enriches my life. Do you not have any crutches of any kind? Are your beliefs 100% consistent?

Christianity does more good in my life than it does harm. I also am acutely aware there are people in this world to whom it has done a lot more harm than good, which is why I have a history of taking Christians to task. I get the impression you don’t like Christians or Christianity much. That’s your privilege, and, quite frankly, I’m not all that fond of Christians myself sometimes.

You will go your way, regardless of what I do or write, and I will go mine. If you try to get in my way, I will go around you. If you object, that is your problem.

Respectfully,
CJ

87

I answered a question that was asked. I am very satisfied and fulfilled in my Christianity. I am not trying to find scriptures to back up or justify my beliefs; nor am I trying to convert anyone by what I say. This is my belief, like it or not. I don’t really care. I did not answer to get into a debate on beliefs, just sharing my heart. My beliefs have saved my life in more ways then one. This is what works for me, someone may very well have a different path that they wish to go, more power to you. But don’t knock or be judgmental when others choose a different road to travel that works for them. There is only one God, and one Love and One Way. That is what I will always believe. I am neither closed minded or narrow minded. I read many books and have looked into many faiths/beliefs/religions. And I am open to all. For there is something to learn from all. I just know what works for me. I have tasted and I have seen, and I believe what I believe. We must all try to get along and be strong in whatever we believe in and in whom ever you choose to worship. God doesn’t need us, we need Him.
Take Care and Be Blessed Always
For blessed are the peace makers,:slight_smile:

88

While I agree that Christians are often contradictory, I see nothing remotely strange about “settling on” these two statements. They are given as the greatest commandments. Everything hinges on them. Why, then, would you be surprised that if something seems to conflict with these two commandments, the “something” is discarded? It’s like the first law of robotics. When something conflicts with the first law, it is ignored.

Julie

89

I, too, embrace those two statements. But, I think these are lacking a key ingredient.

One must first love oneself unconditionally, flaws and all, before one can give the other two justice. Loving oneself unconditionally has nothing to do with narcissism.

90

Ah, but that is what a very wise, Wiccan friend pointed out to me once when I was wrestling with a particularly nasty bout of depression: that that the commandment is “as yourself” which means I’m not supposed to love myself less than others, and that I must be willing to forgive in myself that which I forgive in others. That’s still a tough lesson for me, but I’m working on it.

CJ

91

You are a wise man, Siege, for understanding that. It is indeed, a difficult task, a lifelong endeavor worth the effort. I struggle myself.

92

Wise woman, actually, but thanks for the compliment. I’ve also been lucky enough to know wise people and sensible enough to try to learn from them.

CJ

93

Siege:

Of course I acknowledge that. To do otherwise would be dishonest. As for whether it’s a reasonable way to bolster belief in my god, I would say that it is the least unreasonable way I know of.

The appeal to pity has worked somewhat as I actually feel bad in replying but reason knows no bounds. This statement pretty much goes against your point to MoronosaurusRex that Christians are using logical thought to arrive at their decisions. Unless you only meant that they are capable of logical thought, just for other topics, which I don’t think Moronosaurus would disagree with.

I don’t know what would work to convert you to Christianity, therefore, this seems to have the same minimal chance as anything. You’ve got no interest in converting in Christianity, I gather, just as I have no interest in becoming an Atheist.

Unless the Christian god comes to me with a real convincing miracle and makes the statement that all the bad stuff in this world wasn’t his doing and that he was powerless to stop it, denying omnipotence I doubt it will happen. I do have an interest in what is real, which is why I became an atheist. I suppose the question you could ask yourself is are you interested in what is real, or is a belief held for comfort or convention enough. If the latter is the case is it reasonable to be arguing on message boards to convince others that your perception is justified by logical thinking?

Your guess, however, is wrong. I don’t owe my Christianity to some Great Cosmic Life Changing ExperienceTM. I owe it to some folks in a small church in a small town who gave me the one place I could go in that town where I would not be insulted and where I could feel welcome and wanted. They gave me a home.

I’m sure your smart enough to realize that because they were kind is no reason to believe that their supernatural beliefs are true. They have secular humanist have meetings and I hear they are kind too, minus the request to tithe and a lot of other guilt ridden baggage.

My religion is a crutch. I admit that. On the other hand, so are the friends whose presence enriches my life. Do you not have any crutches of any kind?

I have hobbies and friends, you could call that a crutch. I try to choose my crutches with a high net positive value, minus bad stuff like screwy morality, guilt, cognitive dissonance, offerings and such. I can understand using religion as a crutch but is it not possible that other alternatives might be better? I just finished Bertrand Russell’s short book “The Conquest of Happiness,” it might be worth a read as it addresses some of what you are talking about. Short, clear and to the point, I give Russell the thumbs up.

Are your beliefs 100% consistent?

I don’t know about 100% but to quote Diogenes the Cynic “badchad’s perspective is consistent, if contemptuous.”:wink:

Christianity does more good in my life than it does harm.

Maybe not.

94

jsgoddess:

bible

Matthew 23:37-40
He answered, '“Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind.” That is the greatest commandment. It comes first. The second is like it: “Love your neighbour as yourself.” Everything in the Law and the prophets hangs on these two commandments."

Badchad
I could make the statement that out of over 1300 pages of contradictory text, you settle on a couple of statements as clear enough to follow, while mentioning that just about any other book addressing morality is likely to have a better record and rest my case there but…

While I agree that Christians are often contradictory, I see nothing remotely strange about “settling on” these two statements. They are given as the greatest commandments. Everything hinges on them. Why, then, would you be surprised that if something seems to conflict with these two commandments, the “something” is discarded? It’s like the first law of robotics. When something conflicts with the first law, it is ignored.

Jesus said these two commandments were the greatest. He did not say to follow them and only them, in fact he said to do a lot of other things too. What Jesus meant by everything hanging on these two commandments is a little ambiguous. I don’t see where one would get it that it is ok not to obey the other commandments that he (Jesus) told you to follow, including those that don’t conflict but don’t seem implied in the above two commandments.

Still if you hold that if two of Jesus’ stated laws conflict and that one is to be discarded, the only reasonable conclusion is that Jesus is at best less than perfectly reliable, which should shake your faith a little in regards to everything Jesus said, including which commandments were greatest.

How’s that?

95

Or that if there is a conflict, perhaps you (a general you) didn’t understand the nature of the commandments and you would be best to stick to those unambiguous commands to love God and love others to the best of your ability.

Julie

96

jsgoddess:

Or that if there is a conflict, perhaps you (a general you) didn’t understand the nature of the commandments and you would be best to stick to those unambiguous commands to love God and love others to the best of your ability.

Possible, but I don’t like the idea of “not understanding the nature of the commandments” as A) why would god make his commandments difficult to understand, and B) it gets too close to the number one answer to all the really good Christian criticisms, that being “we can’t understand god’s will.” Off the top of my head I can think of a few places where Jesus contradicts himself, even from one sentence to the next but that’s only part of the issue. In the examples I listed a few posts above; about not saving for the future or not getting a divorce, they don’t contradict with Jesus’ favorite commands and they aren’t ambiguous, just seemingly unreasonable in frequent circumstances. Yet many “liberal” Christians have often decided they don’t need to follow these rules even though they were also spoken by Jesus from the same from the same book of Matthew where the greatest commandments came from. Fundamentalists will also break the rules I listed but at least they will admit it is sin and repent for it, liberals from my experience will say it isn’t wrong for the same reason that I as an atheist would, and my perspective obviously isn’t Christian.

97

Jesus said “behold, I stand at the door and knock, if ANY MAN would open the door I would come in and sup with him.” Meaning that we are all free to partake of the free gift of eternal life, and become Christians (a term which simply refers to a follower of Christ).

As to whether or not there are folks out there who have not heard of Christ - yes, they do exist. We showed the Jesus film to a group of people in Kazakhstan, a mostly Islamic former Soviet republic. They wept at the scene of the crucifixion. One man turned to me and asked, “When did this happen? We didn’t see it on the news.” When I told him it had happened two thousand years ago he began to weep even harder, saying “Why didn’t anyone tell us?” He is now a follower of Christ. So, yes, there are many in the world who would give you a blank stare when the name of Jesus is mentioned.

98

It seems odd that there are a bunch of posts centered around the idea of behavior equaling salvation. Which is completely contrary to the crux of Christianity - the free gift of grace. We are not saved BECAUSE of any good works or right behavior. We are saved solely because of Jesus’ sacrificial death and resurrection. We cannot ever be good enough or act good enough to earn salvation. It is called “faith” because we trust in Jesus’ sacrifice to be the propitiation for our sins. We don’t have to DO anything except trust in Christ’s gift. That is it.

That said, once a person begins to follow Christ he will want to do good things. As one begins to know Christ and gain intimacy with Him through prayer that person wants to please Christ and cause Him joy. That is why Christians love each other and their neighbor. Because when we do good things it makes Jesus happy. Just as it makes me happy when my 3 yr old is kind or gentle. We are not saved because we are good people. We are saved so we can become good people.

99

So what about all the good, happy, loving, compassionate people who don’t give a rat’s ass about Jesus? Are they going to fry in Hell? What kind of a Jerkwad God would that be?

100

No. That’s Sola Fide, which the Christianity I grew up in (Catholic) does NOT teach.

Try reading James II. “Faith without works is as lifeless as a body without breath.”