you seem very confident, despite being challenged by practically every other poster on the thread. They have a variety of worries such as the unscientific nature of the ‘study’ and its underlying assumption that homosexuality is somehow ‘wrong’.
These posters include gay, straight and bisexual, as well as atheists, agnostics and Christians.
Yet, according to you, they’re all wrong.
OK, let me try a confrontational approach (I’m a polite chap really, though).
The Gay Liberation Alliance* ‘knows’ that Christians are all really gay people, who use religion as a desperate attempt to avoid their true sexual nature.
I am going to conduct a scientific survey to prove this.
I phone a number of monks and nuns (living in retreats), and ask them if they have ever had sexual feelings for the same sex.
(I’m sure there is research showing that a same-sex community, which is held apart from the rest of society and where there is a clear line of authority, has a much higher rate of homosexual (or lesbian) activity. I don’t have a cite for this, but since you can easily ignore 35 years of tested research, this shouldn’t be difficult to swallow.)
OK, my survey produces figures of, say, 88% of Christian men and 74% of Christian women answering yes.
** This proves Christians are all really gay. **
Swiftly I publish the research (of course not sending it for review to one of the ‘biased’ science journals), and pocket the healthy fee.
And the difference to the study under discussion is…?
Have you actually read the responses you have been getting to your OP?
There is nothing in this article you link to that in anyway invalidates any of the reasons people have been giving you for why this study is a farce. The basic method of research employed is just fine. It is the manner in which it was employed that is the error. In trying to find out if it is possible to change from homosexual to heterosexual orientation the researcher only talked to people who made a claim to have succeeded, not TRIED but only succeeded. Not surprisingly they said that they had. What is surprising is that so few said that they had.
There are many well documented cases, some already mentioned in this thread of people who at one time said the same thing but now recognize that they were in denial. This is not an area where self reporting is an accurate measure of the phenomenon. If a person is well motivated enough to try and change their sexual orientation are they not also likely well motivated enough to convince themselves they have succeeded even for a short period of time?
What does that prove except that people are capable of self delusion under stress? There is ample evidence that this is in fact the case. Look at some of the materials created by ex-ex-gays. I don’t have a link. Does anyone have a good source for the stories of people who swore up and down that they changed only to discover otherwise later. I vaguely recall the story of how two of the founders of one of these “ministries” left their wives for each other after traveling the world for a decade or more telling people that they were no longer gay.
And that is just one story. There are hundreds if not thousands of people who considered themselves ex-gay and who are now openly homosexual. During their ex-gay period any of these people would have said they had successfully made the transition from gay to straight if asked by Dr. Spitzer.
So you see the fact that a small group of people who are passing themselves off as ex-gay answered as they did is to be expected even if 5 years from now they are all involved in homosexual relationships again. They think they are “cured” and so that is the answer they give. Later when they discover you can’t be cured of being yourself many will revert to homosexual behavior. Some will no doubt continue living in loveless relationships as heterosexuals even if they never feel any attraction for the opposite sex. Gays have been doing this for centuries to “fit in”. And some, who were bisexual all along may indeed continue living a happy life with one committed heterosexual spouse.
The fact that some people who have been through these programs self report success has no meaning. Such self reporting has been going on for years. IIRC one of these “ministries” was even caught using a testimonial of success from a person who had since returned to a homosexual relationship.
If you went to a group of people who claimed to have been abducted by aliens and asked them if they had been I think you would get results very like these and they would think they were telling the truth to. If fact this study has probably been done.
Self reporting in these cases is meaningless.
I tell you what. In ten years follow up with this same population and let me see the results then. From everything I have seen it will be very different.
I would also like to point out that neither I nor the scientist who performed this research have ever claimed this study was generalizable. The statistic of 66% was made to quantify the data and was not an attempt to generalize it.
If you’re shifting your point about the study to emphasize that it’s qualitative rather than quantitative, then this whole thread has been pointless. A qualitative study cannot be extrapolated from. Therefore, this study only has meaning when related to the people who were polled in it. It’s completely meaningless to the general population of homosexual and bisexual people.
So I have to wonder, what’s your point? Considering that the title and the OP are shifted into the “questionable if not outright disingenuous” column if you move the argument so it sits on the “qualitative” category, it sounds more like you’re grasping for something that will make the last four pages look a little less like you ramming your head against the facts.
Here it is another time: Qualitative studies can’t be extrapolated into a general population and are therefore meaningless when applied to anyone but those surveyed.
I have not shifted my point. I challenge anyone reading this to show where I have tried to extrapolate to a general population from this study. It is possible, though probably not likely, that the people interviewed in this study are the only gay people to ever become straight. Even if this is the case, the study is scientifically beneficial in that some people (maybe not you) have postulated that such a change is impossible. Now that we know that this is possible, further research is needed to find out if there are other people who can be helped and how this can be accomplished.
this is where you are extrapolating to the general public. You are also assuming that the people in the study are correct in their self determination that they changed their sexual identity vs. changing their behavior. that is the second fundemental flaw that you’re doing.
We do not know that these people changed their sexual identity. After 5 pages, all we’ve been able to conclude (and we said this on page one) is that some people, given sufficient motivation can change their behavior for some period of time.
that’s all. and, that’s not news. it does not require more study, since we’ve known this forever (‘some people given sufficient motivation can change their behavior for some period of time’).
I have made what seems to me a reasonable assumption, namely that the people in this study are knowledgeable about their own sex lives. I base this assumption on my own personal experience. I consider myself to be an expert in the field of my own sex life and would therefore feel myself qualified to characterize it and describe it in detail to an unlucky researcher should I so desire. I assumed that the people participating in this study are likewise experts in their own sexuality. Maybe I am wrong about this and the people in this study know less about their own sexuality than total strangers and the researchers should have interviewed these sexual psychics instead of the actual people. Perhaps someone should point me to a study documenting the insight of total strangers into the sexual lives of others, access to such individuals could save considerable time and money in future research.
Tell us, puddle, under what circumstances do you feel attempting to change one’s sexual orientation is justified? What do you think the underlying causes of desiring such a change might be? Do you think there are viable alternatives to this kind of therapy? Do you think other, more deeper issues should be resolved first, i.e., a patient’s self-esteem, issues of guilt, outside pressures, etc.? Do you think there are cases where such an attempt should not be recommended?
Since you seem to be the only person advocating such a radical change, it seems appropriate to find out your own motivations.
It’s reasonable to assume that these people are knowledgeable about their sexual behaviour; they were there, presumably, so these are factual matters. It’s not reasonable to assume that they’re knowledgeable about their sexual identity, which is an emotional and spiritual issue that may undergo radical changes depending on the person’s environment and their experiences.
The participants in the study are all people who were conflicted about their sexual identity, and dealt with that conflict in a particular way: they underwent conversion therapy under the auspices of Christian organizations with a bias against and hostility to their apparent predisposition to homosexuality. They then self-reported on their own success in changing something about which they aren’t experts, but about which they have tremendous external pressure to conform, and tremendous ego stakes in succeeding. It’s very plausible that they willfully took a behavioural change to be a change of identity, when their ability to do so is exactly what’s in question here.
Until you acknowledge the difference between their sexual behaviour and their sexual identity, you’ll never understand why so many here reject the conclusion of the study.
Esprix
If someone wants to change their sexuality I don’t think they have to justify anything to me. It is their life and they must live it as they see fit. If they feel that being gay is incompatible with their goals and values, who am I to impose my beliefs? For that matter, who are you?
Nice dodge. Now, could you answer my questions, please?
Personal freedoms aside, I would see the attempt to change one’s core sexuality as akin to sex reassignment surgery - not something to be done lightly or quickly, but that would require years of therapy, a reasonable waiting period, complete medical justification, etc. “Sufficient motivation,” IMHO, isn’t enough - there has to be a sound, viable, medically and psychologically justified reason for making such an attempt, considering that making such an attempt rashly could and does lead to serious mental and emotional damage.
In the end, I’m surprised the second study quoted in this thread found a figure as high as 2%.
If homosexuality is not wrong, why bother changing it. Even without explicitly saying homosexuality is wrong, the implication is clearly there.
Then they should have left out the “statistic” or stated that the number is meaninless.
I am concerned with the failures. What about the damage done by the process to the victim’s mental state? What about the damage done to family relationships? andygirl has pointed out that a homosexual child can cause or widen a rift in the family. The “statistic” seems to imply that two thirds of the highly-motivated individuals were able to convert; it implies nothing of the kind. It gives false hope to those who think that conversion is possible and justifies rejection of the gays whose conversions fail.
Instead of trying to “fix” homosexuality, the solution is realize that there is nothing wrong with it. If you or a family member is gay, accept it. Why is this so difficult?
Esprix
I am not as anxious as you to “Put personal freedoms aside”.
Why should we let others make decisions about people’s sexuality? Whose permission did you seek about your sexuality? Did you have to wait a reasonable amount of time or medically justify your sexuality?
I did not dodge your question. I just do not think that anyone, even someone as intelligent and fair minded as I, should get to decide someone else’s sexuality. Dr. Matrix
Your question is better directed at those trying to change. Clearly there are people who are trying to change and they have what they consider to be compelling reasons. I have no special knowledge of these reasons.
The statistic was given at a society of trained psychiatrists. No one with familiarity in social research methods would make that mistake, the researcher is not responsible for the ignorance of those who do not understand statistics.
Leaving aside my utter shock and immediate urge to fall over laughing at your self-characterization as “intelligent and fair-minded”, that’s pretty much our point. Nobody decided their own sexuality. I’m gay. Esprix is gay. You’re straight (I assume). My mother is straight. Esprix and I haven’t decided our own sexuality any more than you or my mother decided yours. The people trying to change their orientation didn’t decide to be gay. They may have decided to be straight. That doesn’t mean they are.
Are we having a problem of communication? You are aware that sexual orientation is more than merely the sex act, right? Not having sex with men (if you’re a man) doesn’t make you straight. Having sex with men (if you’re a man) doesn’t make you gay. It’s a more complex characteristic than can be discovered just by watching who people sleep with. It’s a more than fair chance that those who actually do consider themselves changed in orientation were actually latent bisexual before the “therapy” began. Being limited to relationships with a single sex (contrary to popular belief) is no huge hardship for a bisexual who truly wants to act straight.
And people keep telling you that the respondents to this study are not existing in a social vacuum. There is enormous social pressure by family, friends and churchmembers on a “changed” homosexual. There is enormous pressure by the “changed” person him or herself, as usually a large amount of time, effort, and self-conception has gone into creating and maintaining the new “straight” persona. Lying is not uncommon under these conditions. You see it also in unchanged homosexuals…or what do you think the whole closet thing is about?
Especially when those people try to use this non-quantifiable study as the foundation for the argument that “we need more studies that find that gays can change”…
Even if they are knowledgeable about it, there’s no reason to believe that they’re being truthful about it. Self-denial is not limited to drug addicts.
Ah, then it makes perfect sense for anyone with any problem at all to just go to a psychiatrist and say, “Do not bother me with troublesome questions about my childhood, internal struggles, mental history, traumas or motivations - I wish to change, so change me! The reasons for doing so are obviously superfluous, for I know what is best for me.” Indeed, you would have psychology as we know it decline to the levels of plastic surgery.
Fortunately, those of us with some modicum of intelligence know that psychology isn’t about imposing one’s will on someone (which I dare say is what these religious-based ex-gay groups are all about), but rather helping the patient solve their most deep-seated problems, ones that, when addressed, would alleviate some spurious desire to change something as innate to the entirety of their being, such as their sex, sexual identity, etc. If, however, after intensive therapy and after all other avenues are completely exhausted, such a change is still warranted, then this kind of radical therapy (which remains, by the way, wholly unproven and typically ineffectual) might be attempted. Bottom line is that neither you nor I nor any patient is qualified to do so - a psychiatrist or psychologist is. I’m happy to leave such intricate therapies and diagnoses to the experts.
As I said, no one is suggesting so, so yes, you’ve dodged my questions. I will await your answers, as I’m sure everyone following this thread would like to hear them. After all, you are accusing everyone who disagrees with you with having some sort of political agenda, so it seems only fair that we ask about yours.
And if you’re going to persist in this “homosexuals can change” route, then I’m going to start quoting sources about how heterosexuals can also change their orientation - all we need do is put them in prison for a while. Isn’t it nice to know you have options when you’re dissatisfied with your sexual orientation because can’t get a date on Saturday night? :rolleyes:
Not to be rude or anything, but have you gone through
‘conversion’ from gay to straight?
If so (and it worked), then I can understand why you
are so confident in the study.