Can gays go straight? Science says yes

[andygirl]

Puddleglum, these are places where I feel that you are trying to extrapolate on the research and apply it to the general population.

From page 1:

Dr. Spitzer concludes that gay people can turn straight if they are highly motivated and that a mental health professional can help them in this process. This should silence the sexual fascists who say that gays who are unhappy in their lifestyle choices should not be allowed to try to change their sexual preference.

Your use of “sexual fascists,” besides being in poor taste, implies that the generally held position that sexual orientation is not changeable is extreme and irrational. This applies to the general population because it takes on a commonly held belief and challenges it.

However the knee jerk reactions of it being immoral and unprofessional may discourage further research, which would be shame because who knows how many people could use this kind of help.

You are saying that negative reactions are not warranted and that many people (in the general population, perhaps?) could use this sort of therapy.

From page 2:

hopefully research will continue and as the evidence mounts fewer and fewer people will be able to shut their minds to the truth. Until then we have to fight ignorance the best we can.

So… pass the information on to the general population, because this study can apply everywhere? Any gay can change, they just need to get motivated?

puddle, you have yet to prove that this study is scientific or that it is proving anything more than the fact that people can convince themselves of almost anything.

However that should not stop us from embracing truth when we find it and so your accusations against me shall not stop me quest for enlightenment.

The truth being that gay people can change.

Have you looked at the success rates? The other studies?

From page 3:

Obviously there needs to be more study of what differentiates the successful therapies from the unsuccesfull ones so that these success rates can be made higher.

Because the rate should be much, much higher. All gays need to change.

This is the impression I’m getting from your posts, puddle.

I’m also getting the impression that you don’t know what you are talking about and are trying to cover by ducking and avoiding.

It’s not working.

[Punoqllads]

*Originally posted by andygirl *
puddle, you have yet to prove that this study is scientific or that it is proving anything more than the fact that people can convince themselves of almost anything.

I took these sugar pills and they cured me of cancer! You can do it, too, if you’ve got the right mind frame.

My sister took them for her diabetes, and she’s not looking too good, though. She must not be motivated enough.

[puddleglum]

*Originally posted by Esprix *
**

Ah, then it makes perfect sense for anyone with any problem at all to just go to a psychiatrist and say, “Do not bother me with troublesome questions about my childhood, internal struggles, mental history, traumas or motivations - I wish to change, so change me! The reasons for doing so are obviously superfluous, for I know what is best for me.” Indeed, you would have psychology as we know it decline to the levels of plastic surgery.

Fortunately, those of us with some modicum of intelligence know that psychology isn’t about imposing one’s will on someone (which I dare say is what these religious-based ex-gay groups are all about), but rather helping the patient solve their most deep-seated problems, ones that, when addressed, would alleviate some spurious desire to change something as innate to the entirety of their being, such as their sex, sexual identity, etc. If, however, after intensive therapy and after all other avenues are completely exhausted, such a change is still warranted, then this kind of radical therapy (which remains, by the way, wholly unproven and typically ineffectual) might be attempted. Bottom line is that neither you nor I nor any patient is qualified to do so - a psychiatrist or psychologist is. I’m happy to leave such intricate therapies and diagnoses to the experts.**

So you think it is appropriate for the psychologist to choose the goals of therapy and change the values of the client. What if the situation were reversed? If the gay client came in complaining of depression or anxiety and the psychologist ignored the client’s concerns and instead focused on changing the client’s sexual orientation. Would that be appropriate? I think it would be just as inappropriate to do the opposite, to ignore the client’s goals and substitute the psychologist’s.

**
As I said, no one is suggesting so, so yes, you’ve dodged my questions. I will await your answers, as I’m sure everyone following this thread would like to hear them. After all, you are accusing everyone who disagrees with you with having some sort of political agenda, so it seems only fair that we ask about yours.

And if you’re going to persist in this “homosexuals can change” route, then I’m going to start quoting sources about how heterosexuals can also change their orientation - all we need do is put them in prison for a while. Isn’t it nice to know you have options when you’re dissatisfied with your sexual orientation because can’t get a date on Saturday night? :rolleyes:

Esprix **

Yes someone is suggesting that someone else should be deciding their sexuality for them. You argued that exact point in the preceding paragraphs. You said that the client is not qualified to make this decision and that a psychologist should decide for them.
As I have quoted data that suggest that some homosexuals can change, it would not suprise me that some heterosexuals can change. After all, I have been arguing all along that sexual preference is not permanent for everyone and that it can change for some people. Such data would only strengthen this arguement.
486
I have not undergone such therapy.

[KellyM]

*Originally posted by puddleglum *
So you think it is appropriate for the psychologist to choose the goals of therapy and change the values of the client.

I can’t speak for Esprix, but I think it’s quite appropriate for the therapist to consider whether the client’s goals in therapy are reasonable and to seek to change the client’s mind, or refuse to treat the client, if in the therapist’s evaluation the client’s goals are unreasonable.

In general, your thesis breaks down rather badly in light of the role of the psychologist in the diagnosis and treatment of incompetent individuals (people who are, due to mental illness, unable to make reasoned decisions about their own care). Quite clearly psychologists are called upon quite regularly to determine whether a client’s goals and values are reasonable, and when they are not, to change them – whether the client initially wants this or not. In your opinion, if a patient presents himself to a psychologist with the request “Please help me kill myself”, the psychologist should hand him a gun, that being the best way to further the client’s stated goal?

As an aside, are you familiar with the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association and the Standards of Care developed by that association for the treatment of gender dysphoria? If so, do you believe those standards are reasonable? Why or why not?

[puddleglum]

*Originally posted by andygirl *
**Puddleglum, these are places where I feel that you are trying to extrapolate on the research and apply it to the general population.

From page 1:

Dr. Spitzer concludes that gay people can turn straight if they are highly motivated and that a mental health professional can help them in this process. This should silence the sexual fascists who say that gays who are unhappy in their lifestyle choices should not be allowed to try to change their sexual preference.

Your use of “sexual fascists,” besides being in poor taste, implies that the generally held position that sexual orientation is not changeable is extreme and irrational. This applies to the general population because it takes on a commonly held belief and challenges it.

**
The position that I find extreme and irrational is that these people should not be allowed to try and change. This is what I mean by “sexual fascism” that other people should be allowed power over the private sex lives of others.

**

However the knee jerk reactions of it being immoral and unprofessional may discourage further research, which would be shame because who knows how many people could use this kind of help.

You are saying that negative reactions are not warranted and that many people (in the general population, perhaps?) could use this sort of therapy.
**

What I am saying is that many people do seek this kind of help, and that further research(some of the kind that is generalizable) could help them receive this help.
**

From page 2:

hopefully research will continue and as the evidence mounts fewer and fewer people will be able to shut their minds to the truth. Until then we have to fight ignorance the best we can.

So… pass the information on to the general population, because this study can apply everywhere? Any gay can change, they just need to get motivated?

puddle, you have yet to prove that this study is scientific or that it is proving anything more than the fact that people can convince themselves of almost anything.
**

Further research may show that any gay change change, it may show that very few can change. Until the research is done we can only guess. That is why the research should be done so we can stop guessing and know.
If the link to the Cornell professor’s site on research methodology did not convince you of the scientific merit of this kind of study then I am at a loss as to what would.
**

However that should not stop us from embracing truth when we find it and so your accusations against me shall not stop me quest for enlightenment.

The truth being that gay people can change.

Have you looked at the success rates? The other studies?
**

I have looked at the success rates and other studies and if the success rate is .01% it would mean that for some people it is possible to change. That is what I have been arguing “that for some people it is possible to change”. All the data mentioned for far has supported my position.
**

From page 3:

Obviously there needs to be more study of what differentiates the successful therapies from the unsuccesfull ones so that these success rates can be made higher.

Because the rate should be much, much higher. All gays need to change.

This is the impression I’m getting from your posts, puddle.

I’m also getting the impression that you don’t know what you are talking about and are trying to cover by ducking and avoiding.

It’s not working.
**

There will be one of two results in therapy, success or failure. In success the client has achieved his goals and is able to live the kind of life he wants for himself. In failure he was wasted time and money and is stuck in a life he finds unfulfilling. Which do you think is a better outcome? What percentage would you like to see frustrated and unfulfilled?

KellyM
If a therapist does agree with the client’s goals and values they should feel free to refuse to treat the client. What they should not do is impose their own goals and values on the client. If the client is a danger to himself or others than this would no longer apply.
We are not talking about people who are unable to make rational choices because of mental illness, we are talking about rational adults making choices about their own lives.
I am not familiar with gender dysphoria and this is a long enough thread without the introduction of extraenous issues.

[matt_mcl]

Originally posted by puddleglum *
Further research may show that any gay change change, it may show that very few can change. Until the research is done we can only guess. That is why the research should be done so we can stop guessing and know.*

As we keep telling you, the research has been done. It has followed proper scientific methodology; it has been published in peer-reviewed journals; it has been verified with similar peer-reviewed studies repeatedly over the past 35 years. One unscientific, unreviewed, and unpublished pseudostudy is of no relevance to the question.

[matt_mcl]

*Originally posted by puddleglum *
If the link to the Cornell professor’s site on research methodology did not convince you of the scientific merit of this kind of study then I am at a loss as to what would.
**

As Degrance points out above, that may be because even according to that article, the study has no such merit.

[John_Kentzel-Griffin]

The conclusions of this study are counter to over thirty years of research by the APA. This does not invalidate the study, but it does mean we should be skeptical and realize that the burden of proof is on these researchers to demonstrate their position.

OK. You have a bunch of people who have gone through conversion therapy. These are people with sexuality issues. The researchers conclude from a 45 minute telephone interview that they have successfully changed their orientation. I don’t buy it, but let’s just accept that just so we can go on to the next problem point.

The sample is only about two hundred people in one study. The fact that they used ex-gay programs to find participants makes the sample biased, yet they are giving statistics as though they mean something., and if you supply statistics, you sound more scientific even when the statistics mean nothing.

*Originally posted by ***puddleglum **
No one with familiarity in social research methods would make that mistake, the researcher is not responsible for the ignorance of those who do not understand statistics.

I disagree strongly with this. Any researcher who sees such gross abuse of statistics and doesn’t make an effort to make it clear that the statistics mean nothing is dishonest or at best irresponsible.

I am still concerned about the failures and the unnecessary damage done to them. What is the failure rate? Well with 66% conversions, the failure rate would be 34%, if you had an unbiased sample, but you don’t! If I’m not mistaken, the conversion programs don’t like to talk about success rates and really don’t like to talk about failures.

They mention highly-motivated people. This together with the misleading statistic, makes it sound like the failures just didn’t have enough at stake. There are already families that are torn apart by the discovery that a child is gay. Add to this the implication that the motivataion is just not strong enough. Well, maybe you would be more motivated if you knew you would be on the streets if you don’t change. This is happening now and this study provides justification.

More research needs to be done to determine the damage done by conversion therapies. These programs should also be required to provide meaningful statistics about the success rates. Until they can be up front about these two points, there is no science.

Just because some homosexuals want to change does not mean that is what is best for them. IMO, What gays need is acceptance and understanding, not more reasons for rejection.

These “therapists” need to put up or shut up.

[Pabitel]

** *Originally posted by puddleglum *
There will be one of two results in therapy, success or failure. **

Wrong!

There are at least three outcomes possible. Therapy can also be damaging. Ask anyone walking around out there with false memories implanted by some well meaning professional.

**In success the client has achieved his goals and is able to live the kind of life he wants for himself. In failure he was wasted time and money and is stuck in a life he finds unfulfilling. Which do you think is a better outcome? What percentage would you like to see frustrated and unfulfilled? **

You don’t really understand therapy either do you.

Lets take the case of a person who goes in and tells the therapist that they want to leave their spouse and children and move to Aruba to live as a beach comber. The only problem is they are still attracted to their spouse and really still in love with them.

According to your theories the therapist should say, “OK how can I help you affect this change and feel good about having done it. Lets start with finding a way for you to stop loving your spouse. We can probably do that with behavior modification, etc. You will be free of this love in no time and free to live the life you want.”

The therapist should not talk to the client about why they are having these feelings or try to do some history and see where these feelings are coming from they should just help the client effect this change.

Is that basically your position?

** What they (the therapist) should not do is impose their own goals and values on the client. If the client is a danger to himself or others than this would no longer apply.
We are not talking about people who are unable to make rational choices because of mental illness, we are talking about rational adults making choices about their own lives.
**

So apply this statement to the scenario I just provided. Does it still apply? If not then what makes sexual orientation different from mid-life crisis?

[Mockingbird]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by puddleglum *
**

Further research may show that any gay change change, it may show that very few can change. Until the research is done we can only guess. That is why the research should be done so we can stop guessing and know.**

You dig yourself in deeper and deeper.

Why is your goal to make gay people change? I know you don’t see that it is wrong, but you should be able to see that you are wanting exactly that which you claim the “sexual facists” wants: to control the sexuality of others.

There has been a great deal of study in this area and it HAS been found that not only do the therapies not work, they cause harm. Have you not heard of the Hippocratic Oath that doctors take that says to NOT CAUSE HARM?

**
If a therapist does agree with the client’s goals and values they should feel free to refuse to treat the client. What they should not do is impose their own goals and values on the client. If the client is a danger to himself or others than this would no longer apply.
We are not talking about people who are unable to make rational choices because of mental illness, we are talking about rational adults making choices about their own lives.
I am not familiar with gender dysphoria and this is a long enough thread without the introduction of extraenous issues. **

Of course, because you are not familiar, the point isn’t cogent, and since it doesn’t support your narrow views, it is extraneous. Why don’t you and der kommissar get together and form your own little group? I’m sure James Dobson would fund you, and then there could be more biased research you could put forth as fact.

[Esprix]

Originally posted by puddleglum

So you think it is appropriate for the psychologist to choose the goals of therapy and change the values of the client.

Obviously your ability to read is as deficient as your ability to reason. I said no such thing. What I did say was that a psychiatrist’s job is to work with a patient to discover why they are having problems, and once those problems and, more accurately, the root of those problems are clearly identified, to work with a patient on the most healthy course of action to help them deal with and/or solve those problems. If a patient walks into a psychiatrist or psychologist and says, “I’m unhappy being gay,” only the most biased, politically- and/or religiously-motivated and incompetent of medical professionals would say, “OK, let’s make you straight, then.”

As I have quoted data that suggest that some homosexuals can change, it would not suprise me that some heterosexuals can change. After all, I have been arguing all along that sexual preference is not permanent for everyone and that it can change for some people.

OK, let’s talk about making you gay, then. Certainly it’s possible, n’est-ce pas?

The position that I find extreme and irrational is that these people should not be allowed to try and change.

Please quote me where anyone has advocated that no one should be allowed to try. What everyone is pointing out is that the trying is potentially extremely harmful, not helpful. Last time I checked, though, no matter how misguided someone might be, they are still allowed to try.

Further research may show that any gay change change, it may show that very few can change. Until the research is done we can only guess. That is why the research should be done so we can stop guessing and know.

What you seem to be missing is the fact that, as stated numerous times, the research has been done, and is ongoing, for over 35 years now, and the conclusions run contrary to this one phone study you hold in such high regard.

If the client is a danger to himself or others than this would no longer apply.

Since reparative “therapy” has been shown over and over to be highly more likely damaging than helpful, referring a patient to such tactics would, indeed, be harmful.

I am not familiar with gender dysphoria and this is a long enough thread without the introduction of extraenous issues.

Oh, it’s quite relevant. I suggest we (and you, specifically) get some more information on the subject.

And I am still waiting for your answers to my questions posted earlier on this page.

Esprix

[puddleglum]

MattMcl
You seem to have your mind made up, fine with me.
DrMatrix
The 66% statistic was not being misused. It is an accurate numerical description of the findings. The researcher never used it to generalize nor would anyone familiar with social research methodologies. As far as I know no characterizations of any kind were made about those who did not succeed. To speculate about them in the absence of such data would be specious. I agree with you that more research needs to be done. There are those who want to preclude this research because they are afraid of what might be fund. Let us hope that they will not succeed.
Degrace
I agree that failed therapy can be damaging that is why we should use scientific data to design therapies that are most likely to be succesful.
If a therapist does not agree with the goals of the client he is not obligated to treat that client. Therapy is about helping the client achieve his goals, it is not about changing the client into puppet of the therapist.
Hastur
I am not the ones who wants homosexuals to change. They are the ones wanting to change. Beleive it or not my opinion is not so highly valued in the gay community that thousands of them have been heading for the exits based on my disapproval. The people that frequent these groups and use these therapies have been doing so with out checking in for my permission.
If KellyM has a point to make that is relevant she should make it. If she want to start to debate about gender dsyphoria she is free to do so.

[puddleglum]

Esprix
If a person walks into the therapist’s office with I’m unhappy being gay then the two should work together toward a solution that is in line with the client’s goals and values. If a client walks in and says being gay is no longer compatible with my goals and values it would be as inappropriate for the therapist to say you need to dump your goals and values and replace them with mine as the scenario you described.

[Mockingbird]

*Originally posted by puddleglum *
Hastur
I am not the ones who wants homosexuals to change. They are the ones wanting to change. Beleive it or not my opinion is not so highly valued in the gay community that thousands of them have been heading for the exits based on my disapproval. The people that frequent these groups and use these therapies have been doing so with out checking in for my permission.
If KellyM has a point to make that is relevant she should make it. If she want to start to debate about gender dsyphoria she is free to do so. **

Provide a citation that says homosexuals want to change. Out of all the SDMB posters I have seen who are gay/lesbian only one has wanted to change, and that was because of a conflict between their sexuality and their faith.

We are proof that the desire to change is not only rare, but brought on by external forces, not internal ones, which cause people to feel shame and self-loathing. You propogate this self-loathing and shame by the suggestion that homosexuals need to change. You have put it forth as need, should, and not may want to. You have made it a global statement, just as you did in this proceeding paragraph.

We do not want to change. We wish to be left alone and not have bigots telling us our lives and that we need to assimilate and become like them.

[Esprix]

Originally posted by puddleglum

If a person walks into the therapist’s office with I’m unhappy being gay then the two should work together toward a solution that is in line with the client’s goals and values. If a client walks in and says being gay is no longer compatible with my goals and values it would be as inappropriate for the therapist to say you need to dump your goals and values and replace them with mine as the scenario you described.

That is not the scenario I described - please learn to read more carefully. The second study quoted (the one you’ve been ignoring for quite some time) said that only 2% of the people involved were successful in changing their behavior; that means 98% were failures. This does not sound like a viable course of therapy for the vast majority of people with problems. Shouldn’t other, more successful avenues be explored first?

As far as I know no characterizations of any kind were made about those who did not succeed. To speculate about them in the absence of such data would be specious.

This has to be the most laughable thing you’ve said so far. So it’s ok to report the findings on the successes, but let’s not worry about the failures, is that it?

Anybody have links to some of the tragic failures of the ex-gay movement?

Esprix

[puddleglum]

*Originally posted by Hastur *
**

*Originally posted by puddleglum *
Hastur
I am not the ones who wants homosexuals to change. They are the ones wanting to change. Beleive it or not my opinion is not so highly valued in the gay community that thousands of them have been heading for the exits based on my disapproval. The people that frequent these groups and use these therapies have been doing so with out checking in for my permission.
If KellyM has a point to make that is relevant she should make it. If she want to start to debate about gender dsyphoria she is free to do so. **

Provide a citation that says homosexuals want to change. Out of all the SDMB posters I have seen who are gay/lesbian only one has wanted to change, and that was because of a conflict between their sexuality and their faith.

We are proof that the desire to change is not only rare, but brought on by external forces, not internal ones, which cause people to feel shame and self-loathing. You propogate this self-loathing and shame by the suggestion that homosexuals need to change. You have put it forth as need, should, and not may want to. You have made it a global statement, just as you did in this proceeding paragraph.

We do not want to change. We wish to be left alone and not have bigots telling us our lives and that we need to assimilate and become like them. **

If homosexuals do not want to change then who attending these meetings and who is going to “conversion” therapies? Bored straight people? If there were no gay people who wanted to change then these meeting and therapies would have no clients and there would be no controversy. Some gays want to change, others do not. How many are in the former category versus the latter I have no idea and neither do you.
The existence of happy gays on this board does not prove anything about gays in general. As I am sure a myriad of posters are about to tell you, you can not generalize from such a small self-selected sample.

[Pabitel]

**Degrace
I agree that failed therapy can be damaging that is why we should use scientific data to design therapies that are most likely to be succesful.
If a therapist does not agree with the goals of the client he is not obligated to treat that client. Therapy is about helping the client achieve his goals, it is not about changing the client into puppet of the therapist.
**

Um, your definition of psychiatric therepy is wrong.

Where did you get the idea that Psychology does or should work that way. Cite please.

[Mockingbird]

*Originally posted by puddleglum *
** The existence of happy gays on this board does not prove anything about gays in general. As I am sure a myriad of posters are about to tell you, you can not generalize from such a small self-selected sample.
**

And in contrast, your “study” is a small sample of self-selected people from organizations like Exodus which does not allow you to generalize.

Unlike you, not only am I gay, but I paid attention in my MANY psychology classes. The issue for gay people is not needing to change, but gender identity, gender dysphoria, and self-esteem issues brought forth by narrow minded views, family and societal pressures, and fear of the unknown.

My agenda is helping people and giving them ALL the information. Can you say the same? Could you give information to someone who has a sexual identity conflict and be unbiased? I have been that unbiased ear in the past. I supremely doubt you can say the same.

[puddleglum]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Esprix *
**

That is not the scenario I described - please learn to read more carefully. The second study quoted (the one you’ve been ignoring for quite some time) said that only 2% of the people involved were successful in changing their behavior; that means 98% were failures. This does not sound like a viable course of therapy for the vast majority of people with problems. Shouldn’t other, more successful avenues be explored first?

As far as I know no characterizations of any kind were made about those who did not succeed. To speculate about them in the absence of such data would be specious.

This has to be the most laughable thing you’ve said so far. So it’s ok to report the findings on the successes, but let’s not worry about the failures, is that it?

Anybody have links to some of the tragic failures of the ex-gay movement?

Esprix **

I responded to your scenario and proposed one of my own.
As I have repeatedly said, more research needs to be done so that more effective therapies can be developed. That there are some ineffective therapies does not mean that effective therapy is impossible. Why should anyone expect all therapies to be equally effective?
Why is it laughable to avoid making judgements in the absence of data? We do not know anything about the people in the study who were not classified as a success. We do not know why they were classified the way they were and to speculate without knowing would just be guess work. When this study is published in its entirety than we will know.

[Esprix]

Originally posted by puddleglum

The existence of happy gays on this board does not prove anything about gays in general. As I am sure a myriad of posters are about to tell you, you can not generalize from such a small self-selected sample.

{ahem} The existence of unhappy gays in one study does not prove anything about gays in general. As I am sure a myriad of posters are about to tell you, you can not generalize from such a small self-selected sample as the one in the study you quoted in the OP.

Ladies and gentlemen, this thread has come full circle. Thank you, and goodnight!

Esprix