we’re not talking about SOMEONE ELSE, we’re talking about GOD. presumably HE/SHE/IT isn’t going to make some silly little mistake like a feeble minded human.
Dal Timgar
Well, if you presume that, then it makes answering the OP pretty trivial, doesn’t it?
By axiom, dal-timgar says no.
shrug
Personally I find people presuming qualities for a being they also claim is ineffible to be absurdly funny. Then again, I have been told I have a strange sense of humor.
witch weighted ego,
it started as a nitpick. 
But if that letter was from ‘God’, it showed he CAN make a mistake (since he ‘forgot’ about Noah surviving the flood).
I think it’s going to be difficult to have a discussion about God without some definitions.
As others have said, if God is omniscient, he CAN’T make mistakes.
If God wants us to have free will, presumably anything we then do ‘wrong’ is OUR mistake.
Of course, if God is omniscient, he knows we’re going to do wrong, so therefore it’s really his ‘mistake’.
I sometimes watch films I’ve seen before (especially Princess Bride 
). Perhaps God likes watching repeats too.
OK, assume God is not all-powerful (just jolly powerful). It’s like someone playing a computer game, where the icons move around the screen. Generally they do what their controller wants, but sometimes they surprise him.
This suggests God is a nerd.
(I hope he doesn’t get bored, and restart the game.)
On a depressing note, I asked a devout Christian today what would happen if a genocidal maniac (eg Hitler) sincerely repents on his deathbed. Answer: he goes straight to heaven.
What about me? Agnostic, well-behaved, ready to respond to a sign from God (but nothing received so far). I get Purgatory.
Homosexuals go to Hell forever. (I asked about gay Christians, but they are simply ‘NOT’ Christians, according to my fundamentalist).
I think that any God that behaves like this is certainly making a mistake…
What denomination was this person? On one hand, Purgatory is a Catholic concept I thought, and on the other, I normally do not associate the ford “fundamentalist” with Catholicism, noer that particular view about gay people - yes, it’s a mortal sin to Catholics, but I don’t hear most Catholics expressing this in that particular way.
Yer pal,
Satan
*TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Six months, two weeks, one day, 4 hours, 58 minutes and 28 seconds.
7928 cigarettes not smoked, saving $991.03.
Extra time with Drain Bead: 3 weeks, 6 days, 12 hours, 40 minutes.
I slept with a REPUBLICAN moderator!*
glee:
I believe your friend is correct from a purely Christian perspective. However, the “Savior Loop-hole” has some pretty strict qualifiers. First, Hitler would have had to sincerely accept Jesus Christ as his personal Savior (Some would say he would have had to be baptized in some way. I’m not a strict believer in that ceremony being any more than an extremely important outward display of faith). Second, he would have had to sincerely repent. Here’s the important part; If he had met these criteria, the Hitler we all know and hate would have ceased to exist and been replaced by the born-again Hitler. (please forgive any past pluperfect errors in this paragraph)
As for the other folks you mentioned, I wouldn’t presume to confirm their condemnation, but I believe I now a guaranteed process for redemption. (See above)
grabs m-w.com dictionary
mistake
2 : a wrong action or statement proceeding from faulty judgment, inadequate knowledge, or inattention
synonym see ERROR
error
5 : a deficiency or imperfection in structure or function
omniscient
1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge
For all I know, omniscience is a quality attributed to God, not by God, but by humans (BTW, I’m obviously not one who believes the Bible should be taken literally word for word).
Here’s some more crap I’ve pondered (GW might call it “fuzzy” logic):
Humans have free-will. If God doesn’t, then we possess an ability (to choose) not found in God? Ergo, God is not omnipotent. That might be viewed as an imperfection. (see above)
If God has free-will, He would also have the ability to err, whether it be intentional or not. This brings us right back to a variation of the original question:
When…why…can…did…will God commit an error, intentional or otherwise? (assemble your own question 
)
*I have a sneaky suspicion someone just came up with a smart-assed baseball remark to share. *
wwe
Well unfortunately he had to leave to catch a train, so we’re going to to continue the discussion later. I’ll ask him about his denomination.
He has got an electronic Bible, so I’m looking forward to some quotes.
Fundamentalist :
- strict maintenance of traditional Protestant beliefs (such as inerrancy of Scripture)
- strict maintenance of traditional doctrines (especially Islam)
I was using it in sense 2).
If you commit a mortal sin (and don’t repent), what’s your punishment?
Well I find it interesting that you’re confident about the result for a genuinely repentant murderer, but not about me, or gay priests.
So if I don’t believe in Jesus, because I’m waiting for a sign, then I’m banished from heaven forever. (Even though I’ve led a pretty decent life).
And gay priests who believe in Jesus go to Hell forever.
OK, so the way into Heaven involves two things:
- genuine belief in Jesus
- not being gay
It doesn’t matter if you kill people as long as you repent sincerely.
It doesn’t help to behave well as long as you don’t believe.
Not a system I care for - and I think it certainly shows God making a BIG mistake.
glee:
Unlike your fundamentalist chum, I WOULD NOT blindly confirm the condemnation of you or gays, Christian or otherwise. The assumption in my statement is that Hitler was utterly hell-bound. A guaranteed path for his redemption was Christ.
If I believed you or gays were hell-bound, I would say the same thing. But I DON’T! I don’t know that there aren’t other paths to redemption.
BTW, I prayed for a sign and feel I got an answer. I took advantage of a personal belief derived from scripture: Prayers humbly asking for that which glorifies the Kingdom of God, in Christ’s name shall be fulfilled.
But, guess what? I still have doubts. I can’t give myself completely to God if He and His plan are infallible. That would mean that all the bad shit that happens is intentional. I could give myself completely if I believed He…
I’m sorry, I’ll have to think about that one for a while.
witch weighted ego,
yes, I realise you didn’t condemn me to Purgatory (thanks!).
But how can you be certain in one case (Hitler), and not know in the other (gay priest)?
Who explained it all to you?
very long sigh
I didn’t condemn gay priests, either. I’m not Fred Phelps for cryin’ out loud. I choose not to concern myself with deciding whether others are definitely going to Hell.
Please replace Hitler’s name in my explanation with the phrase, “utterly Hell-bound individual.” I didn’t bring Hitler into to this conversation, you did. I agree, he obviously represents a prime example of a damned human, by just about anyone’s standards.
My parents live their lives in a way that I believe conforms to goodness, mercifulness and respectfulness. I owe my character and beliefs to them.
There are many roads to the airport, but as a Christian, I know of one super-highway that’s always open. Are you capable of understanding this concept? If not, I’m weary of this off-topic discussion.
I’d rather hear about the sign for which you are waiting.
glee:
I see now you were asking why I’m not condemning gay priests yet knew for sure Hitler was damned. While I don’t put energy into actively pin-pointing what sins are required to assure one’s self of a ticket to Hell, and just who has committed them, it’s farely obvious when one completely lacks any redeeming qualities (such as a Hitler).
If he wasn’t automatically condemned (pending salvation), you and I have nothing to worry about.
I still think you’re missing my point. I understand that Christians say that a ‘hellbound person’ can save themself by truly repenting (and turning to Jesus) on his deathbed. My query is ‘how come many Christians say that gay priests are damned?’. After all, the priests have believed in Jesus all their lives.
I’ve just asked Polycarp this question in another thread. So far he’s ducked it by saying that gay celibate priests are fine.
As for a sign of God. Well something physical would be good. Look at it this way. If God doesn’t exist, there wouldn’t be any evidence for Him. So far I have no evidence.
Glee said:
For the same reason they would say gay bus drivers are damned. Priests are not any more immune to sin than the rest of us. I do believe they are more likely to have a deeper understanding of sin, and therefore more able to avoid it. I’m positive that even Mother Teresa considered herself to be a sinner; the same as any other humble servant.
Some Christians focus on homosexuality and consider it to be an abomination (as described in the Old Testament). I view it as a sin of the same magnitude as extra-marital heterosexual sex. The major departure for me is that straight sex is sanctified in holy matrimony. Gay/Lesbian sex is not. I wish someone could accurately interpret the Bible to allow for a holy gay marriage so we’d be rid of the whole argument. However, the Bible uses such clear language describing gay sex as sinful, even my liberal interpretation cannot find any way around it.
Priests (not married, by definition) having sex of any kind would be committing sin. I’m with Polycarp. The sexual preference, in and of itself, is not the sin. It’s the activity.
You would be hard pressed to find a Christian condemning those actively gay priests to Hell without any possibility of the redemption I mentioned before (re: Hitler).
wwe
<Can/did God make a mistake?>
I think my religion class told me He can’t make a mistake . . something about His being perfect.
“My query is ‘how come many Christians say that gay priests are damned?’.”
We don’t all say that. I am of the opinion that God, not the pope, is the final judge. I believe that’s what the pope teaches, too . . . I don’t think it’s within the right of any one person to say that X person is damned. Not their decision.
Yes, I fully understand Jesus can forgive any sin.
I’m talking about actively gay people who say that what they do is NOT a sin.
Could you give your references for the Bible describing gay sex as a sin?
If it’s Leviticus 18 verse 22, then I have a further question.
Leviticus 20 verse 9 states that everyone who curses his parents shall be put to death.
Leviticus 20 verse 10 states that everyone who commits adultery shall be put to death.
Why aren’t these applied?
There are branches of the Church where priests can marry and have children.
Are they committing a sin?
They need to read the following passages from the Bible (New International Version):
Leviticus 18
22 "`Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
Leviticus 20
13 "`If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Romans 1
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
1 Corinthians 6
9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
1 Timothy 1
9 We also know that law [1] is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers–and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
I’m not Catholic and I don’t know whether the Pope would condone the marriage, but, sex in the confines of holy matrimony is not adultery…not sin.
For the record, since I’ve been brought into this thread by implication, I did answer glee’s comment on the other thread. (And my initial post about the gay priests remaining celibate was couched as what all Christians would agree on – that if they remained celibate, had been baptised (presumably so, as priests), and accepted Jesus as Lord and tried to live their lives according to His teachings, they would not end up in Hell. Needless to say, there are people who would discount any one of those provisions as a requirement – but if they fit all four, there is nobody who would expect them to go to Hell.)
Under my interpretation of the Scriptures at hand, a gay sex act is not ipso facto criminal. And, of course, a “priest” may very well not be under a vow of celibacy (Orthodox, Eastern Rite Catholic, and Episcopalian priests, for example) – and conceivably is married to another man, in a denomination which both sanctifies same-sex unions and ordains its clergy. Certainly an instance of gay sex may be sinful – our celibate priest, for example, or an act of coercive anal sex upon a twelve-year-old boy – and IMHO, there are cases where it is not. This could get into a long argument between Christians as to the interpretation of specific passages of Scripture – which might be an interesting thread, but is definitely a hijack of this one.
Glee, do this and the post in the other thread satisfy your question?
Christ’s sacrifice overturned these rules. They are still sins but, thank God, the original punishment is not enforced…I’d be one dead f-cker.
I think there’s a risk of me using the same argument in two threads (this one and ‘Christians: What denomination(s) is/are closest to the truth?’). So I’ll continue this in the other thread, because it seems more relevant.
witch weighted ego,
thanks for the Bible references, and hope to meet you again!
I have to say that as a Christian I’ve thought about this particular subject before. However, I have not come up with really any answer. The best that I can do is to say that since he sincerely repented, God will accept him. The fact is, it is not our deeds, but what is in our heart. That’s a point that so many people seem to miss. To truly repent would meant to be sorry for all that one has done and to promise to try not to do it again. That seems to be the reasoning behind it. We can’t look at what God does and judge Him based upon it. Our minds are too limited to comprehend the reasoning behind an omniscient creator. What we may call a mistake may very well not be, which is true for everyday life, but much more so here. It is much easier for someone with faith in Him to accept this than someone who doesn’t. I don’t mean to be insulting, but when you are looking in you don’t quite have the understanding that one on the inside might. So, my point is, no matter what we think, God cannot make a mistake.
As for homosexuality, it is something that is forbidden in the Bible. God created humans in opposite sexes for a purpose. That’s the way it is. Man was, and still is, meant for woman. Ergo, a man is not supposed to have sex with a man, and the same for women. It doesn’t happen in nature, so why must it happen with humans? I personally don’t understand that aspect. I do know that it shouldn’t be, and I’m going to stand by that.