I think Al. D makes a good point (if this is his point…). Why should we expect “moderate” Muslims to carry the ball for us? Especially as we seem hell-bent on making their case impossible. I know we aren’t at war with Islam, that would be as silly as being at war with Buddhism. But truth be known, some of our countrymen believe it, the same countrymen who believe that Jesus is passing out the ammunition. A blasphemy to shock an agnostic.
As well, why should a moderate Muslim have any more responsibility than a moderate atheist, or a moderate Christian? That would be, in effect, identifying with their Muslim faith more than they identify with our shared humanity, which is precisely, exactly wrong.
Did I say anything about the military? But it’s interesting to note that the Commander in Chief Bush and his family are friends with Falwell. So close, in fact, that Falwell was invited to George the Elder’s 80th Birthday Bash. Birds of a Feather, you know.
BTW, think Falwell and Bush aren’t connected? Who’s that third from the left? No this ain’t one of those “we met because we shook hands in a reception line” type relationships.
We can say all we want about how we’re not at war with Islam, but you don’t have to be of any religious bent to realize that actions speak louder than words. And it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to recognize that our balance of Islamic goodwill efforts is severely lacking these days.
No, I didn’t know that. Boy, its great to be well-informed. Falwell, he’s the smarmy pudge-bucket with the undertaker’s smile, right? Yeah, sure is great to be well-informed. Yep, this is definitely a handbasket. No question about destination. Up to date in all regards.
OK, I am going to try one last time. I feel this has become a lost cause, but also feel that I should try to do something…
Not to please me, but because it is the point of the OP. If you feel that Iraqi (not Arab, not Muslim, not EU citizen) hearts and minds cannot be won, then say so. Or if you think they can be won, but not by the US, then say so. Just don’t trot out the same thing we have all heard so many times before, no less than three times in this very thread, about how bad America and Americans are.
Yes, thanks, did that. Considering I, too, live in an EU country, sharing accomodation with others from both non-EU and EU countries, I think you are wrong, but oh well. Care to present a cite? Or is your post your cite?
I appreciate the passion. What I don’t appreciate is being lumped in with a bunch of bible thumping morons in my own country, especially as I don’t even live there but in fact live in the EU myself! Do you like being compared to the Taliban much? Because it’s the same thing you’re doing to me.
Oh, and I didn’t vote for Bush. Neither did 49% of my countrymen. So get a grip, would you please? The 49% of us who didn’t vote for him KNOW how bad he is!
Thanks, I have. In fact I came up with two - more Muslim leadership in the peacekeeping military and increased UN presense along with more NGO aid to Iraq.
What I am waiting for is yours.
Did I accuse YOU of anything? No. Yet you automatically jump to defence. I merely posted an opinion, that if the Islamic ‘street’ as you call them, would stand together and condemn the terrorist kidnappings and assasinations, the daylight knife murder of Theo Van Gogh, etc etc etc then it might make a difference and have a few less Christians cannoning up for religious war…
My point is that you don’t see the same sort of vocal and unanimous condemnation of the actions of extremists within Islam as you do within Christianity.
Did I say any of that? I would thank you not to put words in my mouth, please.
My point is that if a peacekeeping force led by Muslims was to take over in Iraq, then it might make a huge difference in the perception of the normal everyday folks in Iraq that this is in fact not a imperialistic spasm of invasion by the US. Of course, since you happen to expouse the view that this is the first step in the US invading and conquering the rest of the oil-rich Muslim world, I don’t expect you to agree, but c’est la vie…
Yes, it is, and rightly so. I have advocated for larger UN presence in Iraq for months, especially from Muslim nations. This is what I mean by ‘skin in the game’ - if they really, truly want peace and an end of the Islamic terrorism, they should put their money where their mouth is and cough up some troops to help out!
Unlike you, I do agree with the judicious use of military force. And in case you were wondering, I was for action in Afghanistan to remove the Taliban and to capture or kill Osama Bin Laden and as many Al-Queda members as possible. I think we were completely justified in doing what we did there, and incase you’re wondering, we didn’t need a hell of a lot of support from anyone else to get the bombers over Afghanistan and the Special Forces A-teams in place along the borders. As for the proper work of nationbuilding, we know we needed help, we asked for it, and we got it. And now we’re helping to pay for it, too. Hell of a way for an ‘Empire’ to treat a conquered territory - leave it as soon as possible, eh? Kinda blows your argument about ownership out of the water, too, though…
Nothing new, nothing interesting, and nothing that warrants a response.
Prove it - why then are we asking for huge support from the UN now? I kinda doubt we want to Own Iraq, even it’s oil, as the US actually has quite a bit of that ourselves…
I think this is really rich, especially coming from anyone living anywhere close to the EU. The US broke a lot of shit in WWII in Europe, and paid for nearly all of it to get replaced - ever hear of a little thing called the Marshall Plan? Y’know, the one that rebuilt all of Germany, the Low Countries, and large parts of France after WWII? Guess who paid for that little marvel - that’s right, the US.
The US pays more money to charitable causes per capita than any other nation on Earth, quite a few of them international. We have more volunteers in organizations such as Medicines sans Frontieres than any other nation on earth except for France. Who was the first one in in Iran when they had massive earthquakes that killed thousands? Or duing typhoons in Bangladesh? Or earthquakes in Central America? After local resources, that would be US resources, both government and non-governmental, running to the rescue of people they have never even met.
This is quite simply a ridiculous premise.
We have had strategic (and yes, economic) interests in the Gulf for more than a hundred years, yet only since 1991 have we had bases there - care to gues why? So yeah, I think as long as we run a risk of being attacked from the people who live in that region, then yeah, I kinda think we will be keeping a military presense there.
You jump to conclusions faster than anyone I have ever known. Show me where I said anything about Muslims dying to secure the capitalist aims of the US? face it - we got where we are without a hell of a lot of Muslim support, other than those Muslims who have moved to the US and gotten jobs and joined communities here. We are now the #1 economic powerhouse nation on Earth. When, exactly, did we need Muslims to die to support that? You have a pretty inflated view of the importance of the Muslim world, my friend.
I’m starting to think the answer might be no, sadly. Of course, I don’t blame the troops, but blame the shoddy intel they are getting an the seemingly unpenetrable mindset linking 9-11 to Iraq when there is no link.
Nice part about the “don’t smoke in front of the kid” !
Its the classic “dam if you do, dam if you don’t” issue about fighting insurgents. The question now is how long will the USA stick around… and how many lives are worth for holding on to national pride and politics.
