Just because they are in a combat zone is no reason for this kind of thing , these marines seem to be out of control.
Unless (really scary thought) these things are actually sanctioned by the military and they only prosecute when caught out. That would explain the lenient sentencing.
I hope I’m wrong!
Two things are failing here:
1, This is a leadership failure. No, I am not blaming Bush (for this specific failure), but if this many guys from one unit are all accused of war crimes, then both the platoon CO and the company CO should go to prison right alongside these guys. The Battalion CO should be fired and the Division CO should be forced into early retirement. This is a failure of leadership pure and simple
Regarding the murders committed by US military and the killing of the Iraqi boy more specific, there was a thread made on BBQ about this.
And where I asked the following
No reply came on that and the thread seems to be dead from there on.
Maybe someone in this thread can give an opinion?
And in addition, in line of the OP questions: Do you think the Iraqis are not asking themselves the same questions?
Salaam. A
This would have no place in a courts martial or a court of law, so this question would have raised an objection and would have been struck from the record.
Many many many times. It’s not something often talked about, and it is something that is frequently publicly covered up, but yes, it happens.
As for the example you cited about being in an urban area in close proximity to medical care, then I kinda doubt it - unless the unit was pinned down or under fire, then I don’t think it would even be an option. Even then, most small combat teams (say anything more than 4 soldiers) deploys with a medic amongst them, so the medic would attempt to stabilize the wounded soldier and the capability of battlefield medics to stabilize wounds is pretty amazing (I was trained as one in the Air Force, so I know). I seriously doubt they would shoot their wounded in any but the most dire circumstances.
I also seriously doubt, that in a standard unit of Marines or Army soldiers, with proper command and control, a wounded 16-yo boy would have been killed either - their officer or senior NCO would have put a stop to this happening. Friendly fire happens, but in a properly functioning unit, it does not get wildly out of control as these Marines did.
This unit was in meltdown and should have been pulled off the line long before this incident happend, thus it is a failure in command and control.
Yep… 3 years is a joke. How many months did those Abu Ghraib rednecks get for sticking glow sticks in Iraqi asses ?
Most of the trials haven’t begun yet, but believe me, there’s almost no sympathy in America for those disgraces to their uniforms.
Anyway, maybe we’re looking at this the wrong way. Maybe we should take care of as many people as possible instead of inconviencing everyone for the sake of a few what the Times Magazine called Feral Cities. Brazil, for example, has written off several of the favelas, according to the article.
Also in the same mag, an article on the spreading of democracy.
You can’t drag people to polling booths, but show them the facts and all but the most violent and stupid will hopefully see how the future can be if they stop being so afraid of America, the world, and especially each other.
Mehabitel… naturally there is no sympathy from most americans… though many seem quite willing to defend these soldiers. The problem is having few trials and far between them as isolated examples. It seems pretty clear that soldiers are running a muck in Iraq… and only a few are getting their hands slapped.
As for that “spreading of democracy” I think everyone agrees that having democracies is a better choice… the problem is how you get about it. Also when the biggest democratic country sets such a bad example, it doesn’t help.
Just to be clear - I am NOT defending the soldiers. I am saying that in addition to punishing the offenders, their officers should be punished as much if not more so for allowing this sort of insanity to go on…
I also think it is a few isolated incidents, to be honest - this is what, three instances of abuse reported in 2 years? To be honest, if it was more instances that were part of some sinister cover up, there would be dozens and dozens of separate incidents and rumours of hundreds more.
I think you’re giving the ‘conspirators’ too much credit - those running the military are not nearly as good at keeping secrets as some seem to think they are… and the military does have at it’s core a staff of good hearted and honorable soldiers.
We are only six weeks away from the democratic elections in Iraq, I hope I can add a note of optimism to the thread.
If Israel can hold elections in the face of continued suicide bombings and still remain a democracy then surely it is possible for elections to go ahead in Iraq.
Maybe, if the elections proceed and a truly representative Iraqi government is installed then maybe we can begin to win the hearts and minds.
Although IMHO we (the west) failed them in 1991 when we stood by an failed to support the uprising after GW1, so it’s no wonder they don’t trust us now.
There doesn’t need to be a ‘sinister conspiracy’ covering up for there ‘only’ to be 3 incidents we know of.
There could just be no witnesses, no camera’s or you could have self-sensoring reporters or officers that want to deal with it indoors.
In fact I would think 3 reported cases indicative of a factor x un-reported cases.
Yes, but I see no evidence in the news sources I follow (many of them international and not pro-America) of additional incidents being reported.
Do you have a cite for the dozens and dozens of incidents you imply?
Campaigning has begun now and according to the BBC Allawi is running.
Having him voluntarily abstain would have had some symbolic value, but I’m guessing the American friendly parties think there’s a greater benefit to getting more votes due to name recognition.
My magic 8-ball says:
Given the large number of candidate parties, the result of the election will be similar to that which we see in Israel, a fragile ruling coalition of several dissimilar parties that risk collapse every couple of months over some single issue they can’t agree on. The Allawi side will win this election and he will remain Prime Minister, but I doubt very much it will in any way be a stable government.
Meanwhile, the minority bloc MPs that dislike the American presence will through a democratically elected parliament be given a credible platform to voice their opinions, and every time another US army scandal comes to light they will be quick to exploit it. This strategy will work well for them.
A succesful vote of no-confidence in the Allawi government followed by new elections will happen in about a year, and the general consensus in the west will be that elections were held too soon.
[sub]My magic 8-ball has very fine print[/sub]
Dang.
Well, it was true that he wasn’t running when I posted that. :smack:
I think the guy’s OK but I hope he doesn’t win; he’ll be seen as American puppet no matter if he fixes the electrical grid personally.
How will the “Iraqi” elections be held ? 1 single vote… the biggest vote count wins ? Or will there be some sort of second turn… with a second voting for the two highest vote counts for example ?
Or is it parliamentary style ?
Everything I’ve seen says it’s parliamentary-style.
Report from the Washington Post by people with boots on the ground. Mixed but generally optimistic.