Moderator’s note:
Hey Lexicon? If you want to keep posting on the SDMB you’ll refrain from this kind of personal attack. It’s inappropriate, for the board and this forum.
If you can’t discuss a topic without resorting to this level of personal invective either bail out of the discussion or go play somewhere else.
Consider this a formal warning.
TVeblen,
for IMHO
Originally posted by BickByro
quote:
“…a secondary argument implicit in the issue at hand: that women have any possible natural reason to be offended by men’s “lustful thoughts.” Why are such thoughts to be prevented? Why should it bother any woman to have her breasts looked at? Why should it even bother a woman to know in her heart of hearts that some man just got an erection by looking at her?”
I daresay that the feeling expressed by most women who object to obvious (as opposed to any) workplace flicking is not that men’s “lustful thoughts” are to be prevented. The feeling seems to be, “Think whatever you wish, but please don’t be obvious”. There’s a difference, I think.
American women struggled to make it into the workplace. They were seen, as some posters have said, not as valued members of companies but as T&A. That wasn’t good enough for most women, so they worked harder and pushed. They wanted to be considered on a par with their male colleagues. The goal is, I think, probably within grasping range. I think the reason that many women dislike obvious/constant flicking is that it gives them the impression that they aren’t being taken seriously.
Originally posted by BickByro
quote:
"No, we were looking at them long before that, but suddenly women come into the workforce and tell us that we can no longer look at our nudie calendars, pass around our novelty pens, tell dirty jokes or talk about the hot number we saw at the bar last night. And GOD FORBID we try to replace any of those distractions by glancing at your tits every so often.
You seem to overidealize the workplace—perhaps one of the reasons so many women were so eager to get into it in the first place, before they realized that as often as not it’s a soul-sucking bother. Especially now that we aren’t allowed to think about sex."
To me, this is a very telling couple of paragraphs. I have my own interpretation of them, written below.
“You fucking feminists. Us guys were off at work, slaving away, with only our nudie calendars and stories about the chicks we banged to entertain us. Meanwhile, you were home eating bonbons and the kids were raising themselves. But NO. That wasn’t good enough. You got all uppity and decided that you wanted to WORK, for some reason. Now us guys are forced to deal with you chicks’ hangups just 'cause you weren’t happy at home. I’m supposed to change how I operate so that you’ll be comfortable. Y’know what’s comfortable? Home. You weren’t bright enough to figure that out, huh? Go home, eat some more fucking bonbons, and let me finish hearing Fred’s story about that hot blonde he nailed last night. After all, life is so hellish here at work. I need to pass the time, and I can’t think of another conversation topic besides tits.”
Am I accurate?
Hmm… Given the subject matter, couldn’t you have found a safer way of phrasing this? 
Okay, sorry, sorry.
Now then, not being female, I couldn’t tell you for certain what I would think of the flick were I a woman, but I have this suspicion that it would bother me. If it does bother someone, does the why of it matter? Surely common courtesy would tell you that if you know something would bother someone, you don’t do it!
I actually find it uncomfortable to maintain eye contact for prolonged amounts of time, so my eyes tend to wander randomly. This means that I often wind up glancing over someone’s shoulder or at a wall or something like that. I should hope that if as my eyes kind of meander around the room at random (it IS random, I swear!) they happen to (unintentionally) pass over your chest, you’d not be offended, but I can’t say that I’ve ever asked. So do we have a verdict?
The glaringly obvious point that seems to be sailing over some heads is that not all venues are the same. Behavior that is appropriate for one setting is not necessarily appropriate for the other. Attentions that a woman OR man might invite in a bar or other purely social setting are not those that they might invite in a *professional * setting.
Let’s turn the tables a bit to give some perspective on where those of us not liking unwanted gawkers come from. Guys, how many of you, particularly in high school, went through agonies of embarrassment when you got an unwanted stiffy in public? How many of you were absolutely convinced that every single person you passed in your high school noticed what happened to you? How many of you would have been mortified if you knew for sure that some girl had noticed, whether you found her attractive or not? What would you have done – honestly – if one had not only stared at you, but you later overheard her whispering to her friends about you and sniggering?
The point is, I’ll concede that men can’t control their erections – but outside of surgery, women can’t control the fact that they have breasts, either. We didn’t ask for them so we could provide eye candy to all and sundry; they just grew. Women such as myself who were generously blessed deal with said blessings as best we can – just as you did those unwanted billboard erections in high school. I’m not at all sorry I have what I have, nor am I ashamed, but I, like most women, have definitely had to field some socially embarrassing circumstances because of their presence. And contrary to the misogynistic suggestions of Lexicon, I see no reason why I should maim myself to compensate for others’ lack of control.
Common courtesy dictates that we should refrain from deliberately placing others in uncomfortable social situations, particularly in professional surroundings. Since I live in a hot climate, I wear clothing which is comfortable but professional when I go to work. (No tube tops, no cleavage-revealing tops, etc.) Moreover, I refrain from body language which would invite a less-than-professional reaction on the part of my co-workers. If I can do that much, I figure that my co-workers can respect the effort I have made and not embarrass me by sizing up my tits. After all, we weren’t hired to be part of a social club; we were hired to give our employer our professional skills. That being said, is it really so hard to stay professional at work?
(And no, I can honestly say I have done my absolute best not to place either a male OR female co-worker in that situation.)
I have no problem with the fact that people’s eyes wander, but trust me, there is a BIG difference between casually glancing at someone and doing the ‘check it out’ flick. Most guys think it’s subtle, but trust me – it generally is about as subtle as a nosebleed. It does get noticed. And what’s embarrassing is that it doesn’t just get noticed by your target; it gets noticed by others around you. Heck, if someone is so bound and determined to look, let them use peripheral vision or look while I’m farther off – just please don’t put me into the awkward situation of gawking at my tits right in front of me when I’m trying to talk to you about something work-related.
(BTW, I love my husband’s way of dealing with gawkers, whether I notice them or not – he just catches the guy’s eye and gives him a big shit-eating grin. Most, if not all, will slink off to find something to do elsewhere.)
All THAT being said, what I wear to go to a club or dinner is an entirely different story. My dress reflects the different venue, my actions reflect it, and my reactions reflect it. If I’m dressed to invite attention, I’m not going to be hypocritical and think less of you for admiring. However, I don’t do that on my employer’s time or dime.
Basically, it all just boils down to having some common sense respect for the feelings of other people. If the dress, signals and setting are such that notice is invited, that’s one thing – but if it’s not, that’s quite another. I happen to give both men and women credit with being able to differentiate between the two.
Originally posted by gr8guy
Originally posted by Cosmopolitan
That wasn’t good enough for most women, so they worked harder and pushed. They wanted to be considered on a par with their male colleagues. The goal is, I think, probably within grasping range.
Hmm… Given the subject matter, couldn’t you have found a safer way of phrasing this?
Okay, sorry, sorry.
Very funny, you 
Originally posted by gr8guy:
quote:
“If it does bother someone, does the why of it matter? Surely common courtesy would tell you that if you know something would bother someone, you don’t do it!”
Yeah, I think this way as well. I was gonna say that in my post, but I figured that BickByro would say that it does matter, for whatever reason. So, I avoided it.
As for my own, personal verdict: Even though I would never put them on display at work (provocative clothing), I am not offended by an occasional flick. Momentary/accidental meandering of eyeballs is fine. Grinning/drooling/eyebrow raising/staring/etc. are offensive to me.
So says me.
I don’t really care if you ban me. I’ve been here off and on for long enough that getting banned is bullshit and is often done for stupid reasons.
I only said what I did because it’s the only appropriate response to someone who deliberately misinterprets what is said (or in this case posted) for the sake of running their mouths about something they feel they have a certain amount of conviction.
There are chics who will hear the word “bitch” in the context of normal conversation, and use it a soap box to start some sort of rally and go off on someone who wasn’t even talking to them.
There are homosexuals who will hear someone say “That is so gay,” and just fly off the handle because they think they’re some kind of Gay-Avenger.
All I’m saying is that this chic read something that was obviously sarcastic, and told me it sounds like I have my head up my ass. I’m sorry I started it though, sure.
Fuck all that. That’s why I said what I did. Cheers, bitch.
An absurd statement deserves an absurd response.
If someone is serious about furthering a cause they don’t act like an angry-as-fuck, agenda-of-rage, man-hating dyke about it. They don’t use everything they read as an excuse to bitch things.
And then have the nerve to call me immature.
In a word (or four): What a stupid bitch.
Anyway, I heed your warning, ^sort of^, but do what thou wilt.
Moderator’s note:
My, that was certainly a reasonable response, Lexicon! Too bad you consider respecting other posters and forum guidelines as bullshit. Thanks bunches for working with us here.
Since you turned right around and spewed more invective at another poster it doesn’t look like you’re willing to refrain from being a jerk. Big suprise, I’ve turned it over to the admins.
Please feel free to wrap yourself in martyrdom but it’s closer to self-fulfilling prophesy. You shot yourself in the foot then, just to teach us a lesson, shot yourself in the other foot.
To all others…keep discussing. I’m not locking off a thread just because one person lost control of his sense and mouth.
TVeblen,
for IMHO
I know I’m coming late to this party, but I wanted to comment on one thing that Revtim said earlier.
You have said that “the flick” is the manifestation of a natural, unavoidable, sexual urge, and then you say it is just as likely that your eyes will also flick to the lamp. I might be making a gross assumption here, but I’m going to say you don’t harbor any sexual urges for the lamp.
I can only speak for myself, and not all women (although I would be interested in hearing if other women agree), but I think I am fairly good at telling the difference between “we’ve been chatting for ten minutes and my eyes are glazing over, so I’m going to glance around, and in that process happen to look at the lamp, your breasts, my shoe, and this pencil” and “the flick.” Of course, I don’t claim to be right 100% of the time, so I give people the benefit of the doubt.
But when I notice repeated “flicks”, or the same person flicking at least once every time we are speaking, then I do not like it. No, I’m not going to file any sort of suit, or make a complaint, but to answer the OP, it is not a compliment. I don’t like talking to the woman who cracks her gum on the phone, the guy who takes my stapler all the time and never returns it, or the person who cannot stop with the flick.
Ah… THERE’S the rub.
(Rant on)
How many ways can we self-justify our actions just by the mere use of different words? Subtle use of the extensive collection of terms within the English vocabulary that basically mean the same thing, but save ourselves from admitting what we have actually done.
In a world that took the PC idea and armed the knee-jerk reactionary with a plethora (that’s a big word for “lot”) of buzzwords, self-proclaimed victims went too far and blinded themselves with their own encyclopedic collection of nouns and verbs by using the same words that, when used in one way, could project slander and bias towards non-respectable bahaviour, yet when used in another way (or a similar word) could project innocence or even heroism.
Were you unconscious last night?
Were you passed out last night?
Were you asleep last night?
Or were you just napping?
Jodi, you “note an attractive man” when you see one.
Yet you don’t “give him ‘the flick’”.
As far as I’m concerned, you already did when you noticed him.
If a man notes an attractive woman, he will do the same thing. Generally speaking, he likes to think that he does not, by glance nor behavior, allow her to see he is addressing her in any manner except strictly professionally.
Why? It’s a business setting. True, many men do not have the gift of subtlety or tact… but I think it’s fair to say that you just won some education out of his behaviour:
You learned that this is NOT the guy you’re going to marry.
Just as a woman who finds men with strong hands attractive and will “flick” down ever-so-innocently to look at them(or with unconscious thought), a man may (as the OP suggested. We’ve really lost track of that, IMHO) subtly glance at a part of a woman.
It just so happens that for (let’s say) 90% of men, breasts happen to be something they find attractive. I don’t think you’ll have too many people on this board disagree with this fact.
Tell you what, let’s not even say its her breast(a)s. Let’s say it’s her hair.
Hmm. Not so insinuating, is it?
Or maybe he’s a leg man and glances as you walk away.
hmm. Going into a grey area here, right? Kind of? Maybe not (you’re walking AWAY, remember?)
Professionalism is a conduct that is expected in the office, but I cannot accept that it should be so stringent as to be military. No, I do not advocate behaviour that would make ANYone feel uncomfortable. I think everyone who has posted here has already agreed on that. There’s really no point arguing about it.
True, different people will have different levels of discomfort, but I must admit that if an employee in my office got their neckhairs spiked up like a scared pufferfish over someONE who made ONE QUICK glance at them in an ‘inappropriate’ manner, I’d have to tell them, “maybe you might want to consider employment in another environment.”
As many women have already stated in past posts, they actually make an effort to wear something that would not draw attention to their chest if the situation does call for it. A “power suit” certainly works, if not your usual business or polo shirt. Even a sweater. This definately takes away anything to look at because it’s hidden beneath.
Like men who wear a dress suit, tie and jacket that cover up any sort of sixpack or biceps hiding under there, women certainly have enough fashion choices to be able to wear the same.
You generally don’t see men wearing tight-fitting, semi-transparent, or sleeveless t-shirts in an office environment. I’m certain that there are a few women (and gay men) who have posted here that would state that while they work in such an office environment where that is routinely regarded as inappropriate dress, there are one or two male coworkers they’d LOVE to see in an outfit like that come summertime. (What was that about UPS guys and their shorts? RAWR!:))
The office environment, while it maintains an order of professionalism, is also not a sterilized environment of order. It IS a meeting ground, even of the opposite sex. You chat about home stuff or your latest date with a few trusted co-workers who may have become friends. You talk about your child’s sickness, or the vacation you just came back from or the funny story you heard, the news, the weather, sports, car troubles, the new coworker who just started in marketing and blew the first client (no double entendre meant there…).
Or did you hear that our company has a project with TaylorCo? So that hunky guy from TaylorCo will be by relatively often. Or the last project that went through with Rocky Ltd? Jeff from Marketing and Jane from Rocky have started dating!
It’s still a meeting place. And we are all human, sizing each other up continuously.
So, men will glance. Men should NOT stare. Most men don’t. Most men in a professional environment will behave professionally and with tact. Some will not.
You generally don’t hear too much about men complaining that women are looking at them funny. Some men are smart enough to know that when they walk through an office pool without a jacket that their butts are being looked at. Some may find it embarrassing, but usually it’s the person who’s comfortable with himself that says, “Okay, I get it, some girls think I have a nice ass… sigh” and move on with their daily tasks.
So fine, there’s a behaviour there that some men need to grow from, but there’s no way in Oprah.com’s basement I’m going to be convinced that this phenomenon denotes a strictly one-way street. Until we admit that we can all be jerks/bitches that are guilty of the same things at times, I don’t think we have too much to complain about.
Men glance, so do women.
(Rant off)
Whether or not this behavior used to be accepted, it was as unprofessional then as it is now. Did you cry the day they took away your nudie calendar? Will they have to pry that novelty pen from your cold, dead hand?
The OP asked whether breast-ogling in the workplace is a compliment. The resounding answer from women has been “no.” How hard is it to say “okay, ladies, now that i know it bothers you, I’ll try to be more subtle about this in the future?” The argument that “men used to get to look at tits at work until you chicks came and ruined it” is pathetic and frankly nauseating. I don’t want to get a warning from Veb, but if Bick and others want to keep using this line of reasoning, it’s the Pit for sure.
To LEXICON –
[flight attendant voice] Buh-bye. Buh-bye, now. Bye-bye. Buh-bye.[/flight attendant voice] 
DARQANGELLE –
I’m not going to cut and paste all this. Suffice it to say that in this thread at least we have been pretty specific about what we’re talking about – someone even gave it a name (“the flick”) that most of us have subsequently used. Since you seem to have missed it, “the flice” = glancing at a specific body part (in this case, the breasts) intentionally in an effort to surreptitiously get an eyeful. No one has used any other term but that one, and no one has been unclear about what that one term means.
Then, as noted above, you have misunderstood “the flick” as that term is being used in this thread. I can look at a man’s face and see that he’s attractive. I can look at him from farther away, so that his whole body is in my frame of sight, and note that he’s attractive. I do NOT “flick” his butt or his package or any other chiefly particular part of him.
Obviously, if I don’t catch you doing it you won’t have bothered me. And I don’t mind being “glanced” at in a non-specific or all-inclusive fashion, though I do mind if it becomes in any way unprofessional. But I don’t like “the flick” directed at my breasts. Or my butt, or my legs, or my hair.
I have already said that I don’t make a big deal (or indeed any deal) of the flick. I have already said I don’t consider it, without more, to be sexual harassment. That said, if a woman came to you to report behavior that was making her feel uncomfortable, I would respectfully suggest that suggesting she find work elsewhere would not be the ideal way to handle it.
This assumes, of course, that both parties agree it should be. Sure, you can meet people at work, if you welcome their attentions. The problem with the flick is that it does not take into account the fact that it may well constitute unwelcome attention. It is therefore not the same.
Can’t say I’ve counted them up, but this does not seem factually correct to me.
I’m exactly the same way. It can be so damned unsettling when my eyes dart about and I realize that it might be interpreted as ‘the flick’. Especially in conversation, I will often avoid eye contact by just looking down. I don’t even realize it, but then I’m like, “She thinks I’m staring at her chest.”
I’m so neurotic about it that sometimes that I make myself look like an idiot by looking around like the person is invisible. I’m looking at the walls, floor, windows, desks, fire extinguishers, my hands, and anything else that will avert my eyes from any appearance of ‘the flick’.
Has even one woman said that it was a compliment?. I don’t recall anyone said that “the flick” in a business setting, and when not specifically made welcome by previous behavior and/or provocative dress, was a compliment. That would make the women who have defiantly said it was NOT a compliment to be unanimous. I think that qualifies as pretty “resounding”
Ok, I have been following this thread for a while now, and it has come to my attention that there are some real Weanies in here. Allow me to explain;
Female Weanies:
“In regards to the OP, it’s kinda annoying, but I’ll deal. But if you are constantly staring, groping, masterbating, Blah Blah Blah (a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with the OP or my stance on the OP), then you’re a pig!”
Male Weanies:
“I know you said you’re pretty OK with the OP, but I am going to disregard it because you called me a pig (not really, but I’m a Weanie), and that makes you a Man-hating troll, and you should kiss my @$$!”
Female Weanie:
I’m sorry you’re so much of a pig that you can’t understand why I don’t want you fondling me (or something equally inflamitory)…
And So On.
People, please…Mellow.
That kind of arguing has no place among non-jerks who want to have a rational discussion.
That said, I’d like to argue both sides, if I may.
Ladies, every man I have ever met has a grubby little rutting pig inside them, just waiting to come out. Can we control ourselves? Kinda. But it’s not just the fact that breasts are designed to make men want to look at them. They also move. They shimmey, shake, and jiggle. It’s hard sometimes not to watch them do their little dance. But we shouldn’t.
Guys, when you make it obvious you’re thinking about gettin’ it on with a woman you doesn’t want to get it on with you, it’s not only offensive, it’s frightening. Remember fellas, most of the time we’re bigger than them. And men have been known to force sex on women, and boy do women know it. If football players had a history of raping smaller men, wouldn’t you be a little uncomfortable when you caught a linebacker checking your package out, even casually? That said, very few guys act in such a depraved manner, even if they want to.
All I’m saying here is, how many of you are actually discussing the OP when you’re flaming the last Weanie who said a dumbass thing?
In addition, others have said that they don’t mind. I would think the objectors are in the minority, though again, I haven’t counted. It is true that those who object have argued longer, harder and louder, which may give a false impression.
Because I’d be perpetually on edge that you’d misinterpret the slightest faux pas from me as “harassment”. I mean, geez, I’m a liberal, progressive, pro-feminism kinda guy, but from reading your replies, I could be completely platonic and cordial, yet I don’t think that’d be enough to save my hash from your (apparently) hair-trigger sensitivity.
Funny, I’m not getting this impression at all. It seems like all Jodi is asking for is an environment in which common courtesy rules. You may find her message a little more strident because this thread has been nearly overwhelmed by tit-ogling neanderthals.
Hell, I’m gay and I’d be worried about it, Jodi.
Believe it or not, from time to time I’ve been known to look at women’s breasts. By which I mean exactly what I said: have women’s breasts come into my field of view, as opposed to leer/scope out/ogle women’s breasts. My eyes go in various directions when I’m talking to people; it’s part of the overall balance of oculomuscular motions involved in keeping eye contact with someone without staring at them like a hypnotist.
Now, I’m almost positive that it would be easy to interpret such a happenstance breast-viewing on my part as something with an inappropriate sexual intent. Now it’s obvious that such is not the case in my example. Therefore, don’t you think that the same could happen to a straight man - i.e. that he should happen to look at your breasts during conversation, or see them when you come into a room, without sexual intent? What if he is short?
I feel that there is a great deal of misunderstanding of the term “flick” here. Many men seem to be interpreting it as meaning “glance,” and many women seem to be interpreting it as meaning “very fast leer”, whence the frustration. I can understand that you don’t want men to leer at you. (Frankly, I wouldn’t mind having a man leer at me, although I reserve the right to tell him to fuck off.) But I think a lot of posters think from the choice of language that you don’t want any man even to happen to have their eyes twitch towards your chest, which action I think is pretty much beyond either sexual intent or conscious control.