That’s fine with me. 
There are some conservative posters on this board for whom I have respect as being rational in their thinking. However, I don’t think any of them are Trump supporters so they probably cannot help me understand. Maybe. I’ll wait and see if I get a response from any of them.
I will say I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Really. I do. I’m being 100% sincere. I didn’t mean any offense with what I posted, just that it doesn’t help me understand.
I already know what difference it makes to me when I forgive someone, or a group of someones. I am asking the OP what difference it is going to make to her. What different actions will she take?
If it is just “I will hate for the rest of my life”, OK, but then what happens that is different from forgiving?
IOW, fill in the blank. “Because I am not going to forgive you, I am going to do _____ and I will never do _______”. What will happen as a result of “________”, and what do you hope to happen, and how will that be brought about?
Regards,
Shodan
Thanks for the assignment, Teach, but I’m just editing this class.
Yes, it’s not about forgiving wrongdoers, it’s about moving battle lines.
In Germany, Nazism was purged after 1945. Assuming the US doesn’t fall into authoritarianism, Trumpism will persist well into the 2020s. The struggle for reality-based policy, democracy on election day, and the marginalization of bigotry will be ongoing until the GOP collapses or the Rockefeller Republicans regain control.
“Regain control? They were extinguished years ago!”
Precisely.
Trump voters are human. Humans are capable of rational thought. None of us is entirely rational. A lot of our thinking and decisions is driven by irrational heuristics below the level of conscious though. Even when we’re engaging at a more rational level those irrational predispositions tend to shape the result.
I can see a number of cognitive biases in this list that seem to have some application to the situation.
Like Arthur Dent in Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, I am a monkey man. Aside from the gendering so are Trump voters. So are Clinton voters. The entirely rational person just doesn’t seem to exist unless they’re living with Bigfoot and Elvis. We’re all a mix of the irrational and rational.
Consider making them wear distinctive robes and head coverings, along with little leper bells so the righteous folk know when they’re approaching.
For those who can’t wait for the glorious day when Trump is cast into darkness, write an open (or actual) letter to the abominable Trumpists, warning them what’s in store and hinting at possible mercy if they renounce him right now.
“And so I’m offering you a way out. A complete and unconditional surrender. You can’t ask what we’re going to do to you. You’re just going to have to trust in our good graces. Maybe sometime in the distant future your children and family might believe you had a shred of courage if you act at this very moment. But the time for choosing is drawing near. Choose wisely.”
BeepKillBeep:
What, precisely, are they giving up?
What are the alternatives for a “rational” conservative? By the time the 2016 presidential primaries/conventions were over, Kasich and Cruz And Rubio and the “rational” choices (that is, they seem rational NOW…wanna bet that they’d be painted as irrational if one of them had been elected?) were not available options. There was Trump, and there was Clinton. Given their policy positions, Clinton was surely the inferior choice for conservative voters, rational or otherwise.
How exactly is it a single, or even just a few, issues? Just on the court appointing matter, it impacts abortion rights, gay rights, labor unionism, free speech (with money involved), religious freedom, criminal justice and executive vs legislative control over immigration, diplomacy and military. That’s a heck of a lot of issues. There are also any number of other issues on which rational conservatives have way more in common with Trump than with any potential Democratic alternative.
If candidate X will act as a voter wants on one issue, and candidate Y will act as a voter wants on zero issues, what is the rational choice?
Regards.
Shodan
I made this statement a while back, and I still stand by it:
So far two SCOTUS appointments and I’m glad. If RBG or Breyer were to retire and there was a third appointment, I’d call that a great win. Trump in my view is a dumpster fire, but there need not be perfect candidates to advance an agenda.
Pretty much. Being a Trump supporter is like being an anti vaxxer. It shows you aren’t someone whose opinions are well thought out and not someone that people are obligated to offer default respect for your views.
If anyone can look at Trump, and how he acts and still support him, then there is some defect in them. Either their capacity for responsibility, compassion, morality, belief in western values, etc is deficient. One of those is defective to be a Trump supporter. You can’t be an informed, civil, responsible citizen of a democracy, and also be a Trump supporter. Something on that list has to be missing.
I know it adds to divisiveness, but it’s still true. And I’ve never felt this way about any political candidate before.
And it’s not because Trump is a republican because he was a Democrat for decades before that.
People have pointed out trumps failings to you and you don’t seem to address them.
The way he is being controlled by foreign powers (Russia and possibly Saudi Arabia). He is probably being bribed and blackmailed to putting America’s interests second to his own (aka treason). We need multiple legitimate investigations.
His hatred of democracy and what it stands for. Voting rights, civil rights, human rights, free press, freedom to protest, independent law enforcement, independent judiciary. His adulation of Dictators and his hatred of democracy are troubling.
His preying on the worst in people. Their racism, sexism, religious bigotry, etc.
His gross incompetence, profound stupidity and inability to handle responsibility. Not to mention the immorality of electing a narcissistic sex offender (and yes Clinton did bad stuff too, and he should be investigated for it).
The level of crime and corruption is unprecedented.
We explain to you why we are upset and you ignore and and act like ‘hurr durr the liberals are triggered’.
This isn’t pointing out a failing. This is an example of believing in conspiracy theories. I don’t feel any need to “address” it because it seems so self-evidently unhinged to me that I’m confident that reasonable readers can see if for the nonsense that it is.
Nonsense that is being investigated by the ex-head of the FBI and the best legal team in America.
Nonsense that the other head of the FBI (comey) refused to discuss in public before congress, and nonsense that MI6s top spy in Russia said was such a major issue he worked on a report on it for free.
Yep all nonsense. What would the FBI know about crime.
I noticed you ignored all the other issues too.
What evidence do you have that President Trump is “being controlled” by Saudi Arabia?
The rational choice is to not be the sort of person who makes decisions based upon only one issue.
If you don’t care about the economy, or minority rights, or human rights at all for that matter, if you don’t care about loss of standing in the world, if you don’t care about increased violence in death both here and abroad, if you don’t care about not rewarding those who prey upon others, who use divisiveness to drive their selfish desires, and all it is is one issue that you care about, and the rest of the world can go to hell, then you are not rational.
So, no matter what Trump does, so long as he continues to appoint people like Kavanaugh who will act as an activist on the court to ensure and expand your (and every criminal’s) ability to have a gun, you are just fine with anything he does?
If there any size that the dumpster fire would have to get to before you felt that maybe it wasn’t a net positive?
Perfection may be the enemy of the good, but so is bad.
Would it actually have to effect you personally?
There need to be multiple legitimate investigations into whether Trump’s ties to saudi Arabia are related to why he sides with the Saudi Arabian prince over US intelligence agencies.
Right now we just have probable cause that Trump is committing treason due to bribes. That is why we need multiple investigations. Some of which will start in the house in 2019.
Trump will be investigated dozens of times by dozens of agencies over the coming decades. Right now we are just starting the investigations. The fact that your side just dismisses these issues out of hand is another bothersome issue.
The cost? Can you really not appreciate what is happening to your society as a cost? An intolerable cost?
(I take you wouldn’t be interested in the ‘cost’ to the world)
I feel like at some point, a self-aware person would sit back reflect upon the fact of: “What is my agenda, actually, that it inevitably needs to be advanced by a politician who is a dumpster fire and/or venal self-serving shitbag? If I find myself repeatedly carrying water for such people, what does that say about me or my agenda?”
I feel like at some point a self-aware person would observe that, in historical reflection, in 1960 “minimal federal government” meant preserving Jim Crow, and in 1860 it meant preserving slavery. If I wanted to have an intellectual tenable position then I would really want to be able to clearly explain when and why “minimal federal government” got on board with the idea that states couldn’t enslave people, or deny their civil rights, nor suppress their ability to organize politically.
So far the only things that it seems like conservatives are pointing to with pride are the economy (Obama’s recovery continuing), destruction of regulations (fuck the environment, we want to save money), and Supreme Court appointments (everlasting fealty to The Second Half Of The Second Amendment and a firm belief that American murderers need to be the best-equipped murderers in the world). Little picayune details about the rise of bigotry, racism, and fascism are small prices to pay as long as the disproven trickle down theory is trotted out once more and mass shootings continue.
I take it you’re not using the standard definition of “probable cause”?