Uh, no - that’s why I said “often”. If I meant “always”, I would have said that.
Certainly.
I think you overestimate it. It’s preposterous to suggest that nobody ever chooses to be nice. That is, unless you’re trying to make an extremely general point about the true nature of free will, which is outside the scope of this thread.
I’m so glad we’re in the pit, so I can say - Suck my dick!
Oh, geez. Uglybeech - I knew that sounded familiar. You’re that idiot who thinks you’re gonna “freeze-frame” in one moment of time when you die.
Bwaaa-ha, ha, ha!!! Jesus, what a fucking stupid theory that was. 
Not you specifically, but if you take the sum total of attitudes of the Nice Guy threads, that is indeed what one comes away with.
Sure. And it’s been my experience that there are a lot of genuinely nice guys who are often led to the same logical conclusions, based on their experiences. And that they sometimes blow off steam by bitching and moaning and generalizing, much as most people would do. And that the current vogue is to jump to the conclusion that they are misogynistic puppy-kickers and baby-stabbers because they dare to complain.
Yeah, but probably less of the truth than you think.
I’ve been interested in the subject of what women want for a very long time now, and have been seeking advice and information for just as long. I think I can safely say that this whole “nice guys are really evil” thing is little more than the flavor of the month.
I’ll agree with this. As I’ve said before, I think people are way too quick to conclude that the dateless Nice Guys are as you describe.
People are quick to complain about the unfair generalization that women like jerks. For some reason though, they’re not as quick to complain about the equally unfair generalization that so-called “nice guys” are just spineless wimps, misogynists, or whatever.
This coming from the guy who considers it taxing to count to two.
Ah, yes - Ellis Dee. I had to think a little harder to remember which asinine theory you were the author of. It was that “more lanes you cross” drivel, wasn’t it? The dumbasses are all coming out of the woodwork today…
We just did this a few months ago, about this very subject, the difference between a GENUINE nice guy, and those are aren’t nice, but proclaim themselves to be.
She did NOT say anything about genuine nice guys, she WAS however pointing out why we women get confused and irritated. That of the man who does the whole 'I’m a nice guy, but women are all bitches who just want bad boys, so of course none ever pay any attention to me".
As we women have frequently chimed in to say, we have NO problems with, or prejudice against genuine nice guys. What gets us mad, and screws over genuine nice guys are the ones who, when nicely told “no thank you” go off into a rage ranting stuff like “oh of course not, women like you only date assholes” etc.
Yes, they are. And you can thank your fellow single man who falls under the category lookninjas WAS talking about, that of the self proclaimed nice guy.
Really? I’ve not seen that, but in every nice guy thread I’ve read, the definitions DO cause a bit of debate. It’s not US that swiped the perfectly good term “nice guy” but those who are really jerks in disguise and falsely (fooling even themselves) proclaime themselves to be nice guys.
Ya know? A TON of we doper women have posted explanations for this seeming anomoly. It’s really not “confusing”.
Think about it. You’re a girl, with your girlfriends, dancing at a bar say…you ARE looking, and you ARE interested and hoping to meet a nice guy. So what happens on OUR end of things?
A man (or several) come up and ask us to dance, or ask to buy us a drink, or ask us to buy THEM a drink. Anything. They talk to us, joke around with us, and generally are just “themselves”. Now, we may or may not be attracted to these men as far as relationship material, but we DO want to dance and have fun.
So, where ARE the nice guys? They’re back in the corner NOT asking us, NOT making themselves known to us. We’re not exactly choosing one over the other since no choice has been offered. If the nice guy doesn’t ask, or talk to us, how are we supposed to know he even exists?
So, it’s NOT "don’t be so “nice” to us. It’s don’t be so invisible to us. You can be “nice” and still be firm and deliberate about what you want. You can be soft spoken and quiet and still radiate (yes, get ready for it, sorry I know you all hate it, but it’s TRUE)…confidence.
Why do the “assholes” seem to “get” women so much of the time? Well how do you know that they DO in fact “get” us, and that any success they have lasts any longer than past that dance, or night out? Other than the asshole’s bragging (which…take THAT with a grain of salt), you don’t. If you see, out in public a woman you would like to have, with a man that you’re automatically thinking “oh of course, an asshole, of course HE would get a woman like that”.
How do you know? How do you know it’s not their second date and she hasn’t discovered the asshole side of him yet? Or, if he’s exhibiting true asshole behaviour, how do you KNOW that she’s just biding her time until they’re alone, and then that’s IT, his crap is going to be on the curb before his car engine has cooled off?
You don’t. I think nice guys, both the genuine and the self-proclaimed types, assume way too much by what they see for a few tiny little moments of women, and the so-called assholes who “have” them.
Oh you PrEACh it girl! GAAAAh this drives me crazy. You ask a guy, who has complained about this whole nice guy thing, “well, what kind of girl are you looking for, what kind of characteristics and traits”?
And all they can come up with is “someone nice, who’ll be nice to me”…Good GRIEF!!! And if pressed, they can come up with PHYSICAL attributes (as another poster noted), they definitely want “the hottie”. But they either can’t, or won’t say what else about a girl they want.
It’s like “any old warm body (provided it’s a good looking ‘nice’ one) will do”.
As a woman, there are four major reasons why I have not dated a Nice Guy:
I’m not a hottie, and never was (not hideous, not even unattractive - just not a particularly beautiful woman). Any Nice Guy who only looks to the young (unless he is equally young) and beautiful may honestly lack malice, but by my standards he is not especially nice - just a jerk wannabe without the ability to carry it through, consistent with LoopyDude’s theory.
I can’t stand someone who won’t express an opinion or a preference. You may think you’re being nice to always leave the choices up to the woman, to be equally accepting of anything she may offer, do or say - but to me, all that comes across is indifference.
In contemporary society, it is still customary (not mandatory) for the man to ask the woman out. I’ve seen threads on this board in which guys were being almost beaten over the head with indications that a particular girl wanted to go out with them, and yet they were still afraid to take the risk of asking her out. It’s not the end of the world to be turned down - ask, for Pete’s sake!
Lack of followup: if I have gone out on a first date with someone, and then don’t hear from them for a week, I can only assume that regardless of how much they may have enjoyed the date, it’s just not an issue of particular importance to them. It takes thirty seconds to send a one or two line email. If someone can’t spare that time in a week, obviously the issue isn’t a priority in their lives. Since, when I’ve been in dating mode, it has been a major priority in my life, I can only assume sufficient mismatch as to make any long term relationship untenable.
I assume I’m a fairly normal woman. So there you are, guys. Four concrete things that you can actually act on that may get or keep more females. Enjoy.
As I said previously, what you may be hearing is tip-of-the-iceberg frustration, not clear evidence of misogyny. That’s all I’m trying to say.
I guess we’ve been reading different threads then.
Fair enough, but once again there is a difference between “shy” and “misogynist.”
What makes you think we hate confidence?
Five little words: “Guess what? We’re getting married!”
Some of us are far more observant than you give us credit for.
I want to address this bit specifically. It is well known that women consider men who call back too soon to be desperate, and stalkers in the making. In order to appear not desperate and somewhat confident, we are instructed to wait a few days. So we do, and are then considered to be indifferent for it. Ya can’t win for losing. Trust me when I say that we desperately want to know the “magic time” when we should call. We agonize over this. And we make our best guess. But we misstep far too often. And in my experience, women are very unforgiving of this.
I understand that part. We single women get frustrated with our SITUATION too. And of course not all of us act like angels when speaking of men, the point is, that it’s not going to do men any good, to get all mad at a woman and spout off “of course you won’t go out with me, women like you only date assholes”.
Oh wow, well now that you’ve said THAT, I’m just AGOG with lust for you…NOT.
I’ve not seen it doesn’t = it hasn’t been there, just that I’ve not seen anyone be accused of puppy beating, nun eating, etc in any of them. Told “whining and accusing women isn’t going to get you where you want to be” doesn’t equal demonzing the guy complaining.
Yes, of course there is, but a man can be one, or the other, or both. And accusing, especially to their faces, women of being the enemy basically is not only misogynistic, but self-defeating. I mean, if we’re such horrible evil mean creatures, why do you want one of us?
Silly! Not that you hate confidence, that you hate us bringing it up. Many many men in other “Nice GUy” threads have said (paraphrased) “and don’t tell us to “get confidence” either”. Or alternately, “I’m not ‘changing’ who I am for anyone!!! Why should I be the one to have to change? WOMEN should change who they want to date…etc”.
Every woman that you’ve seen in a bar, or out in public that you don’t know, but have “judged” as being with a bad boy instead of a “nice guy” has said those 5 words to you? (sorry, meant semi sarcastically, but not in a mean way). Come o. My point was, that for all of the women that men, not just you, see and judge in this way, they don’t really KNOW the situation, the woman, or the man well enough to state with any accuracy whether she fits into the category of “women always choose assholes…see??”.
Again, that wasn’t my point. Many times, I’ve heard these comments made on the basis of “observing” some woman the nice guy doesn’t even KNOW for a grand total of a night out dancing, or a few moments while the couple is walking down a mall or some such. No one, not just a nice guy, can make an accurate assessment of someone else’s motives or relationships on the basis of such short observations.
Not to mention, we’ve talked to death what the term “nice guy” means and doesn’t mean. The term “bad boy” or “asshole” seems, at least based on these threads, to mean “any man who has a hot chick on his arm, and isn’t me”.
“Bad boy” traits, according to many of the nice guy complaints I’ve heard, here and on my own romance advice board, as well as out in real life seem to include:
Being in a band and the woman makes more money than he does (and?)
Being “too much” of a partier (not my cup of tea, but whose to judge?)
being a biker (harley, not schwinn)
Having tattoes (again, And?)
Swearing
So, what makes these and other traits I don’t have time this moment to type out equal “bad boy”? Or “he doesn’t ‘treat’ her right and I would so I deserve her more” (as if we were prizes to be handed out to the most “deserving” male).
No, I don’t see, and now it’s you that’s making generalizations without having enough information.
The women we see doing this are not random strangers on the street. They are our sisters, roommates, coworkers, business associates, and close friends. Why would a random stranger tell us that she’s getting married?
Sorry, it was meant as more of a rhetorical question, not a statement. And in answer to your statement of “our sisters, coworkers…etc”. Do all of you guys have intimate enough details about ALL of these women’s lives and men for that matter to be able to without doubt, make the statement that her man is an asshole? Bad for her, she needs OUT of that relationship and so on? Why? What are some of the situations that cause you to decide this for them?
If so, how are you (not just you, collective you) defining “asshole”? Does that mean that he’s just a guy who is rude and overbearing? Too aggressive to other men? Drinks too much? Or makes too little money and wants her to make most of it?
Or are you meaning, a man who beats or is otherwise abusive to the woman, or treats her badly (cheats, etc)?
If it’s the first. May I ask “so what”? If the man is giving that particular woman what she needs, and is NOT abusing her (not just physically of course, but emotionally or verbally as well), what difference does it make if he’s a bore? Or if he doesn’t make much money and she ends up having to foot the bill for most of their lifestyle etc?
Again, that’s certainly not my cup of tea, but I don’t see how that then equals the woman being stupid, or it being “her fault” for nice guys not being able to get a date with her,(or rather “Women”, since so many nice guys seem to generalize this as “WOMEN only want assholes” not “SOME women only want assholes”).
I’m not trying to be mean, I just honestly do NOT get the mentality that says “women only want assholes, I really really WANT a woman, but they’re really a creature who is too stupid to know what’s good for them and they have no taste or brains etc., but I really want one…despite their bad behaviour…” and so on.
And if you’re basing your observations upon the fact that your “sisters, coworkers, friends etc…” complain about the things their men do that make them mad, or unhappy, or want to annihilate them. Well HELL, then there’s no such thing as a true “nice guy” on the face of the planet (or nice GIRL for that matter). Because within a relationship there are ALWAYS going to be things about the person we love that make us mad, sad or occasionally want to annihilate them. AND these very same things are going to make us complain to people close to us “hey, you’re not going to believe what Joe (or Sue) did, this is IT, I’m killing him/her this time”. This isn’t an action exclusive to women in relationships with “bad boys” or assholes. Complaining about our spouses annoying traits is universal, unless one is a saint.
If it’s the second one, and your definition of asshole is one where the man IS either abusive to her, or treats her badly then I’d have to say what I’ve said before.
There is not a single woman in the world who wants to be with a man who is an asshole. Who “prefers” assholedom. Just as there is not a single man on the planet who wants to be with, and prefers being with a ball-breaking, golddigging fishwife.
Do women end up iwth assholes? And do men end up with ball-breaking fishwives? Of course. But WAY too many guys who call themselves “nice guys” make a huge, and not true correlation between that, and that “women only want assholes” as in, only go AFTER and seek OUT assholes.
It’s not as if assholes and ballbreaking bitches go around with neon signs advertising their liabilities. Such people are VERY good at pouring on the charm and hiding their true natures until they’ve got their victim completely under their spell.
And finally, in my opinion and in the opinion of many other women as well, making constant statements about “women” that they only want assholes etc is pretty assholish itself and is definitely NOT nice.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. Do these nice guys want to be RIGHT? Or do they want to win? If all they want to do is be right about how all women supposedly only want to date assholes, go to it. Let them see how far it gets them in the win dates game.
If nice guys want to win, they need to see us as people. Not as possessions to be “deserved” more by one type of man than another. We don’t go to men because they “deserve” us. Nor do we go to them because we “Only want assholes”. We go to them out of love, be it right or wrong, foolish or smart, it’s OUR choice and has NOTHING whatsoever to do with those we didn’t choose. Nor would it change things if the man we chose suddenly disappeared. If you’re not her type, you’re not her type.
They need to accept that that last statement is true, and more importantly that it doesn’t mean he needs to “turn into an asshole to get a girl”. Assholes aren’t everyone’s “type” either.
Second, in seeing us as mere people, just like them, they need to RELAX for crying out loud, and stop treating us as if we’re some sort of exotic untouchable creature in a zoo. You don’t act that way around your coworkers or buddies do you?
Someone earlier on made the BEST suggestion ever. Just go out with girls. Ugly girls, fat girls, plain girls. ANY girls. Hang out in places where there are lots of girls. Get used to talking to them, finding out how they think, not putting them on the pedestal. It will become such habit, that it becomes second nature.
Anyone who considers an email or a phone message a day or two after a date saying “Hey, I really enjoyed myself and hope you did too. Would you like to get together again?” stalking is not someone I personally would want to be involved with. YMMV of course, but it sounds like a case of ego gone wild or outright paranoia to me.
The response I’ve gotten from men with whom I’ve raised this issue have, on the contrary, seemed to feel that I was being unreasonably demanding - that they had other things going on in their lives and shouldn’t be expected to get back to me so quickly. While admittedly this may reflect negatively on my charms and have been entirely due to my lack of appeal to these people, that was not the impression that I have generally gotten. Either way, to me it says that the man’s degree of interest - whether due to me personally, or other priorities in his life - is insufficient for me to continue. My personal take is that anyone who really wants to can find a single minute in the course of the busiest several days. If he really, really can’t, well, that tells me he’s really not in the market for a relationship anyway - he doesn’t have the time.
I just want to comment on this one item. Until you have put yourself on the line, asked someone out, and been rejected, you really have NO IDEA what it feels like. I wouldn’t be so glib about it. Some people are fortunate enough that such things are easy for them, but for others, it’s very difficult. So I object to women saying it’s the man’s job, and THEN pooh-pooing it like it’s no big deal.
Yes, we should all change our world view to suit Incubus.
It would be the nice thing to do.
O.K., I lied. Two points:
This is a good point, but I just wanted to mention the converse of that - the woman who doesn’t want to make any decisions, but then sneers at every idea the man comes up with.
“What would you like to do?”
“I don’t know.”
“Would you like to see a movie?”
“I’m not really into movies”
“Do you want to have dinner at [name of restaurant]”?
“I hate that place; it’s so trendy.”
“Do you want to go to [name of bar]?”
“Oh, that place is too crowded.”
:smack:
Allow me to answer with 3 different examples.
One guy my sister was dating had firm ideas about what a romantic date was: Take her out to some sleazy dive, get drunk, then pick a fistfight with a complete stranger.
One guy a friend lived with: Shiftless sponging pothead who couldn’t hold down a job.
The new boyfriend of a girl I fancied: Insufferable snob who felt compelled to dump on everything he saw, including her.
And I’m sure we’re all familiar with the woman who says “He beats me, but he needs my love.”
It’s true it’s her business, but it’s frustrating to see that when you try so hard to be a good person who would treat her right. It becomes inexplicable that she would rather choose to be with someone who doesn’t. “All women only want assholes” paints with a broad brush, but it’s not hard to see how some guys come to this conclusion. It’s not borne entirely out of fantasy.
I’ve explained it enough times that you should be getting it by now. It’s not that women are “too stupid to know what’s good for them”, it’s that they make choices that baffle our sensibilities. When you try your best to be nice to a woman, and she turns you down to go out with an asshole, what other conclusion would you have us draw?
I guess.
Excellent point.
It’s a good plan, but with one major flaw: If you can’t even get one girl to go out with you, how on Earth are you going to get many girls to go out with you?