"Nice Guys" vs. Decent, Albeit Clueless, Men

I’m assuming there’s a distinction here. The reason I’m asking is that way back in the dark ages
when I was unsuccessful at dating I was often told by girls/women how nice or sweet I was, but that didn’t mean they would want to date me. I really hope the vibe I gave wasn’t the same one given off by the “nice guys” who sound to me like creeps who won’t take no for an answer. I never used the appelation when talking about myself. By the time I reached my twenties I interpreted what many women said about me as "his heart’s in the right place, but he’s just too socially awkward for me to be interested in dating. Why is this an issue for someone who has now been married almost twenty years to the love of his life? I have two teenage sons with social anxiety. I know I can’t protect them from being hurt, but I’d love to be able to help them somehow. They’re both in therapy (actually participating in a study on anxiety in teens). It’s tough, though, to think about their twenties being as miserable as mine were.

“Nice guys” aren’t actually nice. They are called that because they go around calling themselves “nice guys”. As in, “I don’t know why girls don’t like me. I’m such a nice guy!”

But if you happen to be the girl that declines the Nice Guy’s invitation, he will let you know that you’re a bitchwhoreslut that no one wants to fuck anyway.

“Nice guys” are not the same thing as nice guys.

I used to work with a woman who was dating another coworker of ours (despite it being against the rules). She liked him okay, but his “niceness” bothered her. I think it was because she was just looking for a good time, not to break some poor schlub’s heart once it was time for her to move on to someone else. After the fourth or fifth date, she broke things off.

I don’t think she wanted someone who was “not nice”. It’s just that in our coworker’s case, there was a certain fragility about him–like it wouldn’t take too much to hurt his feelings. Perhaps she did the calculation and realized that she was too abrasive and inconsiderate for him. Maybe that’s what the women who turned you down were also thinking about themselves.

As a nice guy who’s managed to be married for more than 30 years now, I can decode this for you.

“There’s nothing actually wrong with you, but I have zero attraction toward you.”

Of course, this is completely shattering to a teenager (boy or girl) but on the bright side, it’s also nothing personal.

The only way I can describe it is by metaphor.

Sometimes you studied hard but the test asked different questions.

Sometimes you’re set for a fastball but the pitcher throws a curve.

Assuming they’re actually nice and not “Nice Guys” things will click for them eventually.

Cluelessness can be fixed. Jerks who pretend to be “nice” well, not so much. All your boys need is some instructions and education. Where to get this I am not sure. Do you have any women friends who could help out?

So “nice guys” are incapable of introspection, while nice guys are. I tend to agree with monstro. When I met someone who knew what she was looking for and was in a similar place career-wise, we clicked. I kind of sucked to not date through most of my twenties, but all’s well that ends well. Probably most women in their twenties don’t have the time to see if that nice but socially awkward guy is worth the trouble. I don’t know that I blame them. It’s not there fault I spent over a decade of my life wondering what the hell was wrong with me. Hopefully my sons will get it together quicker than I did. If they take a while, at least they have a parent who gets it. Mine always insisted I just wasn’t trying.

They have their Mom, who is my closest woman friend. I’m not sure if they got my cluelessness or not. Also, I’m not sure if they have the problem I did. I know they’re interested in girls in general, but I don’t know if either has wanted to date anyone. The social anxiety is a professional diagnosis for both, though. One of my big problems was that I absolutely could not read signals. For example, when visiting friends I was told that of their friends had the hots for me and she couldn’t figure out why it wasn’t obvious to me. Even with that knowledge, I saw nothing. We ended up in a liplock, so obviously there was interest. My wife was very direct, but I wasn’t 100% sure of her interest until after a couple of dates.

Instruction from women is not the answer. Women often give terrible advice because they often don’t understand themselves what makes them attracted to certain men and not others. The people you want to get instruction from are other men who are good with women. Introduce your sons to the seduction community.

Where many nice guys fail is that they believe women think the way men do. I.e.,* “If I like nice, friendly women, then women must like nice, friendly men, too.” * Not necessarily - that makes as little sense as if a woman were to say,* “Because I like tall, strong men with career ambition, then men must like tall, strong women with career ambition, too.”*
In many ways, men and women are opposites.

If you have Netflix, check out the Judd Apatow series “Love” that just recently came out. The guy in that show is a “nice guy” and the show does a pretty good job showing how offputting that is. Episode 5 in particular, where he goes out on a date with a genuinely nice woman, is very revealing.

Socially awkward is no problem for some women, IMHO. It can be cute. “Fake nice” is cruel.

I’m glad you said this and didn’t make me say it myself.

turn your sons into predators. Good idea.

There is a distinction to be made is between a nice guy and a Nice Guy™.

Apparently, there are actual nice guys who, for some reason, are consistently, chronically, long-term unsuccessful in having a relation with a female person, perhaps even being unable to get so much as an occasional date now and then. They are not jerks (that is, those that are jerks are not the ones I’m discussing here), but they have no clue what the problem is.

Even worse, all their so-called friends either have no clue either, or won’t tell them, but simply tell them over and over “You’re a plenty nice guy. There will be someone for you someday, I’m sure of it”. See, e.g., the final statement by kunilou in Post #4 above:

This, it sometimes happens, is a barefaced outright inaccuracy. In fact, it doesn’t always happen that way. For whatever reason, there do seem to be actual “nice guys” who never succeed in having an intimate relation. But all their so-called friends (who would know they are jerks if in fact they are) will never tell them that, but always just tell them what a nice guy they are and promise that they will get a girlfriend someday.

These people eventually will eventually get discouraged with the uninterrupted stream of rejections, disillusioned with the entire tableau of male/female relationships. They may become bitter cynical women-haters, like that guy Loach knows:

When that happens, they have evolved from being a nice guy and a Nice Guy™, and they will then find themselves slandered, denounced, demonized, and considered a creep by everyone – for the unforgivable crime of wanting to have a girlfriend and not being able to get one. ETA: See, e.g., Post #12.

I am a Nice Guy.

There are around something like four billion women that are not interested in having sex with me.

I am perfectly fine with this concept.

Fabulously written. Lack of success embitters people and **worsens **their chances over time, and this unhelpful “just be yourself” advice leads the person to not self-improve.
Interestingly, this seems to be a mostly male phenomenon. There aren’t as many “I’m a good woman but men don’t want me” women.

If I was one of four regular ordinary single men, in a room with five single women looking for a partner, I’d still go home alone.

I don’t know where on the Nice Guy spectrum I fall, but I’ve mostly been viewed as intelligent, talented, quiet, but a bit of a sad sack loser. The “be yourself” concept has never worked for me, but that’s all I’ve ever been.

We live in a world that values extroverts over introverts, unfortunately. The extrovert’s virtues become apparent in 10 seconds. The introvert’s virtues become apparent in 10 minutes. Unfortunately, this is a microwave-setting society.

Do you have, umm…spam for brains?

Well put, and unfortunately true.

Both of my brothers used to be knight gallants to lots of girls. Ed was luckier in that in his case he also happened to not be particularly attracted to his ladies; when he found one that threw him head over heels it was mutual, so he’s been married for 17 years. Jay had worse luck: he likes women with a certain daring streak and he’s one of those quiet, reliable, organized guys who make great husbands… which isn’t something daring girls are interested in until they reach A Certain Age (he’s now engaged).