Can we filter out all the 'nice guy' posts?

The BBQ Pit
101

I think it’s because persistance works in many situations (getting a job, making a sale, etc.) It just doesn’t always work as well in dating.

tdn, You may be too young to remember this (I don’t have any idea) but in the 80’s (when I was in high school and college) there was this idea many of my girlfriends held that guys didn’t like them because they were “too smart.” They’d rant and rave that guys only wanted bimbos who didn’t “challenge” them. Men, after all, were fearful creatures easily threatened by an intelligent woman. :rolleyes:

Sure, there were probably a few men who were threatened by smart women and prefered them dumb (just as there are probably a few women who, for whatever reason, prefer assholes). However, most men I knew liked girls who were smart.

My friends had a couple problems:

  1. They’d see a guy with a rather clueless girl and assume that’s why the guy was dating her. It wasn’t. The guy was dating her for some other reason (she was really hot or something). After making an erroneous assumption to begin with, they’d then extrapolate to saying that ALL men must want dumb women. Likewise, when you see a girl with an “asshole,” you can’t assume that she’s with him only because he’s that way.

  2. Guys weren’t rejecting my friends because they were too smart. They were rejecting them for other reasons. Maybe they were going after a guy that was out of their league. Or maybe they just had totally different outlooks or personalities. However, people rarely tell you the real reason they don’t want you. So, my friends would assume it was because they were too smart. Again, just because a girl rejects a nice guy, it’s not neccessarily because he’s nice. It could be any of a thousand reasons.

After a while, these girls would get so deep into the “I’m just too smart” mindset that they started developing really whiney, bitter attitudes towards men. That alone turned guys off. I’m not saying you have this attitude. But some self proclaimed nice guys do. At least there are enough of them that when many women hear a man start to say something about women liking jerks, we run for the hills.

102

I think it’s because persistance works in many situations (getting a job, making a sale, etc.) It just doesn’t always work as well in dating.

tdn, You may be too young to remember this (I don’t have any idea) but in the 80’s (when I was in high school and college) there was this idea many of my girlfriends held that guys didn’t like them because they were “too smart.” They’d rant and rave that guys only wanted bimbos who didn’t “challenge” them. Men, after all, were fearful creatures easily threatened by an intelligent woman. :rolleyes:

Sure, there were probably a few men who were threatened by smart women and prefered them dumb (just as there are probably a few women who, for whatever reason, prefer assholes). However, most men I knew liked girls who were smart.

My friends had a couple problems:

  1. They’d see a guy with a rather clueless girl and assume that’s why the guy was dating her. It wasn’t. The guy was dating her for some other reason (she was really hot or something). After making an erroneous assumption to begin with, they’d then extrapolate to saying that ALL men must want dumb women. Likewise, when you see a girl with an “asshole,” you can’t assume that she’s with him only because he’s that way.

  2. Guys weren’t rejecting my friends because they were too smart. They were rejecting them for other reasons. Maybe they were going after a guy that was out of their league. Or maybe they just had totally different outlooks or personalities. However, people rarely tell you the real reason they don’t want you. So, my friends would assume it was because they were too smart. Again, just because a girl rejects a nice guy, it’s not neccessarily because he’s nice. It could be any of a thousand reasons.

After a while, these girls would get so deep into the “I’m just too smart” mindset that they started developing really whiney, bitter attitudes towards men. That alone turned guys off. I’m not saying you have this attitude. But some self proclaimed nice guys do. At least there are enough of them that when many women hear a man start to say something about women liking jerks, we run for the hills.

103

Gah, so many replies to read, and so many to write, and so late at night. I’ll answer everybody, I promise. And if I don’t then it’s because I’m an asshole, and therefore hot stuff. You may date me now. :cool:

I understand your point, but must respectfully disagree.

Cynthia the waitress. Now there was a babe. Not enough H’s in “Hhhhhhhhhhot!” to describe her.

I knew she was probably only nice to me to get a good tip. And I can respect that. And I know she was waaaaay out of my league. But I thought “Nothing ventured, etcetera.” So after I paid my check, I asked her out. I knew I’d get rejected. But I wanted to try anyway.

Her response was “Gee thanks! I’m really flattered! But I have a steady boyfriend, so I’m going to have to say no. But really, thanks!” Her smile and blush and body language were convincing of her sincerity.

She probably did have a boyfriend. Girls like that don’t stay unattached for long. And even if she was single, she could have invented a boyfriend on the spot. She deserves a better class of guy than me. And I’m cool with that.

Her rejection was final and unambiguous, but it made me feel all warm and fuzzy nonetheless. I walked away from that rejection feeling ten feet tall. I was not just a Lonely Guy. I was one fucking Major Stud of a Lonely Guy. I know her rejection contained a white lie, but it didn’t matter. I had been officially rejected by a major Class Act.

What a fantastic girl. I wish there were more like her. I’d seek out rejections like that ten times a day.

104

I smile and say “No, thanks” for the reasons described by MaddyStrut. Some guys will take a mile if you give them an inch.

I waited on a guy that hit on me. I forget how he asked, but I replied that I wasn’t interested in dating right now. He got a bit defensive and answered back, “What about going on dates? Can I take you out for coffee?” I thought I was pretty clear when I said that I wasn’t interested in dating and I had to basically reject him for a second time. I hate rejecting guys, more than I hate getting rejected by guys, and it’s especially painful if it has to go on longer than a few seconds.

Last night my coworker spotted the most amazing man at our workplace. He was model beautiful and all the girls thought he was beyond hot. I approached him several times and made it very clear that I was interested in him. He wasn’t interested in me. I wasn’t hurt at all by his rejection, I never have been hurt by a man’s rejection and I’ve hit on a lot of guys.

105

Just to get back into perspective, many posters are making many points, but I’m only arguing two:

  1. Nice Guys may act in ways consistant with misogynists, but those acts most likely do not come from a basis in misogyny. Quite the opposite. I hope I’ve convinced most of you in that.

  2. Rejection hurts, but can be dressed in non-hurtful ways.

And a third point: I love smart women. My current girlfriend is a doctor (as in Ph. D., not as in medical) and a university professor. She can out-brain me in many areas, but she never lords it over me. Much of what I love about her is the very interesting and deep conversations we have. Paris Hilton is (arguably) much sexier physically, but I could never date a Paris Hilton. I have little patience for willfully dumb.

Back to point #2: Last Summer I was playing a LARP based on a mythical medieval society. One of the “suggestions for realistic play” given by the GM addressed social protocol among nobles. The phrases “That sonofabitch is a dirty stinking liar” and “I believe the gentleman is mistaken” evaluated to exactly the same meaning, but the latter was couched in a way that allowed both parties to save face. There was no deception in it, but it took into account the superficial niceties of that particular society. It displayed good manners. It spared hurt feelings.

Rejection of a romantic overture can do this as well. The phrase “I’m going to have to say no” can be preceded with “I’m flattered that you would consider me” or “How dare you think I would ever consider you?” The result is the same either way. But social grace and kindness differs dramatically.

Most (not all) adult women would choose the former, while teen girls often (but not always) get a kick out of offering the latter.

Obvious enough, right?

But keep in mind that most men begin their dating careers hearing the more insulting version (having begun with teenage girls and their limitless capacity for cruelty). And a good many men carry the scars of this painful rejection well into adulthood, where all but the very kindest of rejections bring up past hurts. And future bleakness.

My point being – uh what was my point again? Oh yeah – it’s late, I’m feeling punchy, and I should be in bed. I love this thread, but must continue at a later time.

'Night, all. :o

106

Sorry to jump in in the middle here without looking ahead to see your other posts. But I’d like to answer to this particular “asshole example”. See, this is what I’m not getting about who exactly, to a nice guy, gets the “asshole” label.

This particular example, I have personal experience with, my ex-husband, (many eons ago), was just such a creature. He was not too much into the whole “working thing”. I didn’t know this when we first started dating, it didn’t surface until after we’d been married a bit.

But, and I ask this honestly, does this make him an 'asshole"? Lazy, sure, a pain in the butt to take care of, yeah, that too. ButRob wasn’t an asshole. He was a sweetheart. A courtly, southern gentlemanly, sweet, goodhearted man. Lazy hell yes. The pot thing wasn’t nearly as annoying to me though, as the not working thing. For Rob at least it affected his basic niceness not at all.

Now, I learned from this mistake, and having that sort of husband isn’t my cup of tea, at ALL, but does not wanting to work, and being a bit too fond of wacky tobaccy or a martini = asshole? Really? I’m not so sure I think that’s accurate or fair. Anyway, I’m not totally disagreeing, just partially disagreeing, and am more interested in hearing why this, along with other examples, makes a man an asshole.

107

Nice guys are far from the only people who suffer a string of rejections or pain in the world of romance, or lack thereof as it were. Blaming it on the desired object is neither attractive, NOR will it get you want you want.

It’s not that people aren’t understanding where the frustration comes from in the first place. We do, we have felt it ourselves. Don’t you think that everyone who has suffered in this way hasn’t at some point hated the opposite sex for their rejection, and even voiced it in various ways?

That it has an understandable origin still doens’t make its (where it is the act of doing the whole “of course you won’t go out with me, women only date assholes” routine), PRACTICE right, or helpful. THAT is what people are trying to say, and whether the intention is misogyny or not, that’s how it comes OFF to a woman on the receiving end.

And again, as I’ve said before (though I realize I haven’t seen your responses to this yet), stating that “women only date assholes” is to imply that women only SEEK OUT assholes as in that’s the kind of partner she prefers. And that’s insulting., whether or not that is the “nice guy’s” intent. Not only is it insulting, once again, it isn’t going to win friends and influence potential dates.

The above is said in a gentle but matter of fact, not snarky, tone. I know things, especially of this nature, can look much harsher in type than they are meant by the author., but I’m not meaning any of this in a harsh way :slight_smile:

108

Heh heh, I don’t have a clue, both miller and weirddave have showed me, and I even cut and pasted it into my sdmb coding library, but I STILL couldn’t get it to work. I’m sure someone will be here soon to show you how to do it, I hope you have better luck than I (and I’m so ashamed, since I’m normally excellent with 'puter stuff).

As to the rest of your post, EXACTLY here’s what I was thinking when I read tdn’s post:

I guess this is another area which we need you nice guys’ (small-n) explanation for. To me, this seems to be a matter of pure logic.

nice guy asks woman out
woman responds in a cruel bitchy way
nice guy melts into a pool of self-pitying goo

[scooby do]RuuuRUUUuhuuuHHH???[/scooby do]

It just boggles my mind that it’s not:

nice guy asks woman out
woman responds in a cruel bitchy way
nice guy thanks his lucky stars he escaped a fate worse than death with a troll bitch from hell

109

Three points (none of them Hi, Opal!):

  1. I think that in many cases, both men and women often use generalizations such as “women only want to date jerks, not nice guys” or “men only want to date young pretty bimbos, not bright, vibrant women” to protect themselves from the awful suspicion that it’s actually a personal rejection, and that there really is something unattractive or objectionable about them. Our society has very much encouraged this, with its emphasis on self-esteem being the most important thing (rather than achievement, after which self-esteem will generally follow), and by its love for the quick and easy, often magical (visualization, anyone?) approach to problems. But that is another rant. The point is, often it really is us - whether purely from a matter of romantic whim, or absolute unattractiveness, they don’t *want * us. We have some choices at that point - we can blame it on mysterious and uncontrollable forces such as the outrageous and capricious desires of the opposite sex, we can set our sights on those to whom we are more likely to appeal (i.e. nerdy scientist asks out woman who shows interest in science rather than supermodel interested only in roller-blading), or we can work to change ourselves in ways likely to make us more appealing to the population that attracts us (learn to roller-blade, drop or gain 50 lbs, etc). Certainly the blaming is the easiest road.

  2. This kind of discussion, with its lack of rancor and its real exchange of actual viewpoints and ideas, is wonderful! Thank you!

  3. Doesn’t *anyone * know how to do subscripts??? :frowning:

110

Understandable but pretty immature way of seeing the world.

Far more mature way of seeing the world. Unfortunately, many guys don’t get this until it’s too late. It took me 30 years to get this. Even now, my gut reaction is to default to a pool of self-pitying goo. Maybe it’s a male ego thing, I don’t know.

111

In short, my response to your 5 paragraphs is “Yep”, “Agreed”, “Nice observation”, “Uh huh”, and “Cool.”

112

What an awful outlook on life! That’s a really low opinion of your race. :wink: So why do people give to charity, be kind to animals, not cheat in online games, hold open doors for strangers or perform any other ‘nice’ acts where nastiness doesn’t have any negative consequences?

113

Yeesh, it sure is. Sounds like you’ve got your coffin all picked out and you’re shopping around for nails.

114

To respond to your 3 points in reverse order:

  1. I think you mean superscript[sup]TM[/sup]. Use the tag {sup}my superscripted text{/sup}, but in square brackets.

  2. Agreed. I’m learning a lot here, and it was all done sans profanity.

  3. Goddamn cunting motherfuckle sonofaratshit assknuckle! Do I have to explain Self-Esteem 101[sub]Call now for placement assistance. Tuition reimbursement now available.[/sub] once again to you morons?!? Gargh! I’ve railed against this numerous times before, and you asswipe simpletons just don’t get it! Why don’t I just bang my head against a wall? Better yet, your heads? Ya rectal haberdashers!

Sorry, visceral reaction there.

For several years now, I’ve been wanting to post a thread on self-esteem, one of the easiest yet most misunderstood subjects in the universe. Maybe this is my cue. In short, everyone deserves self-esteem. Yes, even Hitler. Even Ed Gein. Even Simon Callow. And they don’t even have to learn to figure skate or weave baskets to earn it. The mere act of being born is a ticket to self-esteem. It’s what saved me from my Nice Guy[sup]copyright 1980-1992, all rights reserved[/sup] Hell. It’s what told me that even when a woman rejects me, I’m still an OK person. In light of how suicidal I felt about my love life, it literally saved my life.

Listen, if you think people need to “earn” self-esteem, and you wish to begrudge people of this basic human right, knock yourself out. But I’m not waiting for your approval. I claim it as my birthright, and to hell with anyone who feels that they can take it away from me. I am worthy of love, life, and the persuit of joy, same as the best athlete or handsomest celebrity. If you try to tell me that I’m not worthy of self-esteem, I will jab a sharpened pencil in your eye, then convince you that you too are worthy of it, then jab you in the other eye.

Sheesh.

(Yes, you attacked Mr. Peeve, one of my pets.)

115

First of all, tdn, thank you! Let’s see if it works with [sub]subscripts[/sub] as well. Yup! WooHoo!

Second, I think you should open the thread on self-esteem so we can discuss that subject in greater depth. But to summarize briefly, I don’t think you would find your and my viewpoints to differ all that strongly. I absolutely think any human born is worthy of self-respect and respect from others unless and until his/her actions render him/her unworthy of it. OK? Until you open a real thread discussing this (and perhaps you already have, I didn’t check), I’ll reserve any further remarks I have on the topic.

116

I already have. I realized it was a major hijack of this thread, so I created another.

117

Yes, and as someone else said, I think this is the first reaction of anyone. But only for a second.

See, this is what I don’t get, according to men’s opinions and arguments on nearly EVERY OTHER subject known to man, LOGIC is the watchword. So why, when it comes to believing the answers that we women freely supply when it comes to this subject to men refuse to see that what is logical, is what is true?

And as an aside oyl put into one paragraph what MY wordy little brain had extrapolated out into an entire essay!

118

I just have to comment on this, because it’s very astute. I had a female friend who was very nice, but had a bad habit of trying too hard when making conversation. She was always trying to sound cute or clever in a forced way, and it sort of put people off. She once asked me if I thought she “intimidated men”. For the life of me, I wanted to say, “You don’t intimidate men, you annoy them.” Of course I didn’t say that because it would have just hurt her feelings, and probably wouldn’t have helped that much.

Another thing to consider is when you see a guy with a not-so-bright girl, it just might be that’s the best he could do. Maybe he asked some intelligent women out and they said no.

119

It works both ways, you know. It was made quite clear to me growing up that I was incredbily unattractive (I’m not) and I didn’t have the right sort of personality for a typical woman. I’m outspoken, a bit weird, and far too intelligent for my own good. About 10 years ago, a coworker told me, “You’re kind of like a moped – you’d be fun to ride, but no one would want to admit to doing it.” He meant it as a compliment. :eek: Another fellow I know seemed fairly interested until he called one Sunday afternoon and found out I was off fencing. His interest immediately died. From what I’ve learned from mutual friends, he has certain ideas about what a girlfriend is supposed to be, and apparently that doesn’t include playing with swords. When I was in my twenties, I used to hang out in a bar in Waikiki, playing backgammon with the bartender and having wonderful conversations about everything from politics to pop culture. Twice, other men joined in, they looked like business men, if memory serves. I still remember their responses to the conversation. Each time, they looked at me and said, “You’re scary.” I was in my early 20s and having fun. Suddenly in my mind I was transformed into this horrible creature.

I grew up. I learned not to worry about laughing too loud or making too many double-entendres. I figured I had nothing to lose since no one was ever going to want to date me, so I may as well enjoy myself. I fell in love with a wonderful man, agreed to marry him, and wondered what happened when he vanished out of my life without a trace. I tried to come to terms with my oddball, geeky self. Then at a science fiction convention, I met a writer and his best buddy. They told me about an organization where intelligence was sexy. I didn’t believe them, but I gave it a shot. It’s where I met the guy who’s apparently not into fencers. It’s also where I met a bunch of other guys. One of them had also been shot down quite a bit by the opposite sex, so much so that he didn’t know what to do when I screwed up the courage to give him my phone number. He worked it out. He’s smart, you know.:wink: He’s also the man I’ve fallen madly in love with and the reason I whole-heartedly agree with the sentiment a friend of mine expressed – “Mensan men: God’s finest work.” (I’d rate Doper men a close second.)

Nice girls get rejected and sit on the sidelines wondering what they’re doing wrong. I’ve rejected a few nice guys and been rejected and I still don’t know why my engagement ended, or even when! I also know I’m not letting that sour me on men as a whole, just the jerks.

CJ

120

But, blowero, I think Maddy’s point (and it was a really great one) is that people often tend to find a reason for being turned down that not only fixes the blame on the other person, but is actually complimentary to them (the turn-downed one) (I’m too nice a guy - I’m too smart a girl). The reality often is far less palatable: I, not some category I fit into, but I personally, didn’t appeal to the other person. It’s much more comforting, and it doesn’t require any reflection or possible change on my part because after all, being nice or smart or whatever is *good * - it’s just the other people who are idiots, right?