Just as a side point, before I go off and do some actual work.
A number of people have spoken in favor of the idea that women should feel free to ask men out.
I think part of this is generational; I’m almost 49 years old, and mores that apply today probably are less negative about this particular thing than those that apply to my general age group.
But more importantly, I think my feeling has been that if a man was actually interested in me, he, unlike me, had absolutely no custom or social constraints on asking *me * out. Once I became aware that men sometimes were so obtuse that they really seemed to be blind to encouragement being offered, or so fearful that they wouldn’t ask even when you would swear it was a dead certainty that they would be accepted, I did occasionally ask men out or at least get far more overt in my encouragement (as in “I like you, and I’d certainly be up for going out some time if you were interested in doing so.”). But generally, I tend to feel that actions speak much louder than words, and that the proof of the pudding is, in this case, in the asking. I don’t want someone going out with me because they are so startled by the (in my age group) fairly extreme action of my asking them out that they do so out of pity or sheer inability to figure out how to say no - something that doesn’t come easily if you haven’t had practice. I also figure any guy I want to date (and granted, I’m talking a few years ago, - I’m simply out of the market now, unattached and uninterested in becoming attached) is grown up enough to make up his own mind and ask me if he actually wants to - again, there’s absolutely nothing stopping him.
Yes. Why did you say, “But, blowero…”? You say that as if I disagreed with the point.
Again, you sound as if you think it’s easier for men to ask women out. It’s really not. As hard as you think it is for you, it’s just that hard for us. The risk is exactly the same.
I don’t think it’s that men are dumb; it’s that women don’t give as clear signals as they think they do. It’s harder than you think to figure out a woman’s intentions. Some women are naturally friendly, and seem like they’re flirting with everyone, while others are reserved, and don’t give out any signals at all. There’s really no clear-cut formula for us to tell the difference between interested and just friendly. And that’s the whole problem with the idea that the man has to ask the woman out. Why play games when directness is the better solution?
Good for you!
That sounds like a rationalization for not doing it, no different than the “women don’t date nice guys” rationalization. You don’t realize it, but you’re doing the same thing as the Nice Guys you decry. You’re making up excuses for why men won’t want to go out with you. You should take your own advice and remember that if someone says no (or says yes when he means no), it doesn’t make you any less of a person.
He might be shy, or he might not know you like him, or maybe he just hasn’t thought about you in those terms, and needs you to make the suggestion. To quote a very smart person, it’s not the end of the world if he says no. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. You can sit around telling yourself, “Well if guys were interested they’d ask me out”, or you can take the initiative yourself.
Sorry, blowero, I thought you were focusing on the idea that people dated “jerks” or “not so bright women” becuase it was the best they could do. Yes, you did get the point, sorry!
Actually, I was just playing with the frustration we women feel when I said obtuse, etc. I know that signals aren’t always as clear as they feel to the giver.
But as for the latter part, no I don’t agree. Whether you choose to recognize it or not, there is a social stigma certainly felt by women whether or not agreed to by men about asking men out, at least among people of my age. This doesn’t mean that it never happens, just that it is less common and not without some freight.
And, again, I am not in the market now and seriously question (insofar as I care at all) whether or not I ever will be again. But when I last was, bear in mind I was solidly in my 40s. To be perfectly honest, if a guy can’t get up the courage or interest in me to ask me out, I’m not interested in him. That’s a personal thing for me, very much a function of my advanced years and personal tastes, not a put-down of shy men.
You’re not that old. You’re only 8 years older than I am. I’m sure there are men who hold a double-standard like that, but like I said before, why would you want to date a guy who’s so sexist that he would refuse to date a woman just because she asked him out? I would say good riddance to those guys.
You’re certainly entitled to you opinion, but I don’t understand why you would hold it against a man for not doing something that you admittedly don’t want to do yourself.
Well, but it sure seems as if there are a LOT more of those types of men in our generation than in younger men. That is, men who tend to look askance at women who ask them out. Or women who call.
You aren’t that way, and there are exceptions other than you, but way too damn many of the men in that 40s on up age group are.
FWIW, I promised not to abandon this thread, but I have – for now. I need to read up on the past handful of posts, but the hijack that could have occured here morphed into the (IMHO) much more interesting and challenging self-esteem thread. On that, kimera posted a cite that I spent all day reading, and I offered only a weak response, for now.
The subjects in common to both threads are Dating Difficulties and the problems in Self-Esteem that “Nice Guys” face. To me they are personally one and the same subject (emotionally, not intellectually).
Ironically, tonight I discussed the latter with my girlfriend, who is not only my personable sexable cuddly bunny, but a shrink. I admitted to her that the reason I know so much about self-esteem is because I studied it critically when I was going through a major bout of depression. I haven’t dared yet tell her that my depression was largely due to my unsuccess with women.
I was depressed about never getting laid, so I studied up on human sexuality, which suggested that women like men who display self-confidence and self-esteem, and who putatively despise men who never had it, so I pretended to have it until really had it, then I won the woman of my heart, who was just asking me why I know so much about psychology, which if I tell her, will tell her that I’m at core a loser, which will make her break up with me, which will make me depressed about never getting laid, which will…
No, she wouldn’t break up with me over that. Most likely. But my current positive outlook in light of my past negative one gives my sense of humor a dark side that is so amusingly… um… French?
[QUOTE=tdn]
…The subjects in common to both threads are Dating Difficulties and the problems I was depressed about never getting laid, so I studied up on human sexuality, which suggested that women like men who display self-confidence and self-esteem, and who putatively despise men who never had it, so I pretended to have it until really had it, then I won the woman of my heart, who was just asking me why I know so much about psychology, which if I tell her, will tell her that I’m at core a loser, which will make her break up with me, which will make me depressed about never getting laid, which will…QUOTE]
I disagree that women “…despise men…who don’t have it” referring to self-esteem and confidence. Except for in the case of bitchy teens who should know better, it’s more, as I said in an earlier post, that they simply aren’t seen by us, due to their own refusal or inability to come forward.
Ummmm yeah, pretty much. NOT that I’ve been asking and been refused lately, more that there seems to be a huge dearth of dateable men in my age group and geographical area, so no one suitable TO ask.
Sometimes, a person finally does give up, after all dating is a torture worse than any devised in purgatory.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained. You can sit around telling yourself, “Well if guys were interested they’d ask me out”, or you can take the initiative yourself.