While I’m almost 100% certain this is sarcastic, I will repeat my ultimate goal, which I state in the abstract of my report. To treat a hospice center of terminal cancer patients with cannabis medicine to prove it works once and for all. This plan is already starting to come together, which is hopeful, but there is so much more to go.
My goal for coming onto this forum was twofold. I hoped that in a community of intelligent people, someone could maybe help with my primary goal in some way. That’s turning out to be extremely unlikely, but my secondary goal has been exceeded. I wanted to debate about this, to be challenged head on with absolutely no restrictions. Everyone I’ve talked to about this either hasn’t thought to bring up the challenges you guys have or has refrained because they didn’t want to argue or be awkward or something. But you all have come at me with the fire that I needed, and I deeply appreciate it.
I’m not sure, they haven’t tried yet. I would imagine it would take a long time before they could stop providing oil and the benefits would persist. For cases like diabetes, I have heard that when people stop taking oil, they do need insulin again. So for some cases, it seems like continued treatment is needed. That’s not problematic - taking a small dose of CBD oil every day is no different than taking a vitamin. You don’t get high, and it delivers antioxidant and neuroprotectant properties. I believe that in the future, every human will take some form of cannabis every day. And through the power of high-CBD or industrial hemp-based medicines, people don’t even need to get high!
That’s another great irony of this movement. Everybody has always associated medicinal cannabis with getting high. But the most effective form of cannabis medicine, high-CBD cannabis oil, has no psychoactive effects. When you look below the surface, greater truths are revealed.
Just for the record, there are many cases of cancer that were eliminated with cannabis oil and stayed gone for years after treatment stopped. However, there are some cases, like Cash Hyde, where the cancer returned, although he never got to use a proper amount of oil in the first place. I’m trying to think of a case where the cancer returned after an actually full treatment, but I simply can’t.
You missed my post upthread where nine patients with brain cancer were treated. The oil was introduce via tube to the tumor.
They all died.
And while cannabis may have some effect on regulating blood sugar, it doesn’t solve the underlying problem.
But what about the people who also tried cannabis oil and found it didn’t work? You openly admitted that you only concentrate on the successes. You talk about how many positive cases there are, but for all you know, for every success there are three failures.
Epilepsy is a complicated illness – a lot of people have to take more than one type of medication to control it. (As I mentioned before, I currently take two different medications to control my seizures) If these people are helped by this treatment – that’s great. But there is no miracle drug, and any doctor who told me he had one would make me extremely wary, to say the least.
And if they’re calling this a cure, and claiming that someone could stop having seizures, even if they stop taking the oil, then they’re out right frauds and should be charged with malpractice. There is no cure for epilepsy.
I’m bewildered why this thread has had so many replies, when my thread on medical marijuana didn’t get even a single reply. Perhaps I was too cautious and too rational in my comments.
Has JKander admitted that his research is completely without value yet? Or is he still repeating the same refuted points?
…Stupid question, really.
You have absolutely no understanding of medicine. Essentially everything in here is completely wrong. Please go get an education before continuing to state things which are simply completely false.
Oh? You mean there have been large-scale clinical trials? No? Oh, well then it’s not overwhelming. You don’t understand why we do the things we do in medicine to make sure that these things work.
This is simply 100% pure Chopra-level woo-woo. In fact, if anything, this thread helps reinforce why we need such controls. Why it’s so important to have these scientific protocols. And there’s not really much “exact” about it. Your “higher-level truths” are nothing but a slew of confirmation biases. The fact is simply: any study which does not state who it is observing before treatment starts or has a solid methodology in place to examine statistically representative results after the fact (for example, cohort studies examining existing data) is completely and utterly worthless. It has no explanatory power whatsoever, because if you pick and choose cases entirely by your own arbitration, the existence of statistical outliers will allow you come to whatever conclusion you want. This is medical science 101. I mean, how come these guys didn’t make it into your report:
I guess these guys just weren’t reported on the places you looked. How many more cases do you think exist where cannabis oil failed, and you just didn’t hear about it?
Do you understand how phase 2 clinical trials work? Believe it or not, in order to have actual clinical trials, you need patients for those trials, and *the more, the better *(higher sample size leads to more conclusive results, the average size being about 100-300 people). This is the ruse Dr. Stanislaw Burzynski has been using for the past 36-odd years to treat a massive number of patients with his untested, unvalidated “Antineoplasteon” therapy, despite the drug never having been approved by the FDA. Not that he’s a great example (he never published or finished any of those studies, and it turns out he’s kind of a fraud), but there is nothing stopping Charlotte Figi from performing actual clinical studies on her patients with her drug and publishing these in reputable peer-reviewed journals. In fact, given her experience, she could probably publish a decent case study right now of those she has already treated, and if the results are as good as you claim, then that would almost certainly be enough to get grant money to perform this treatment on others for the sake of clinical testing.
For the case of epilepsy: you actually have some preliminary evidence (although n=11 is a tiny sample size), and phase 2 clinical trials would be the next step (and would not require you to stop applying the medicine).
Because you’re a true believer whose faith is unshakable despite numerous explanations of how bad your methodology is?
Damn. I’m good.
No, it’s not. Again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again, we come back to this same point: you don’t understand what “extraordinary” means in the case of medicine. You don’t understand why you could have thousands of anecdotes and it would hardly be meaningful. You barely have a few dozen.
Who do you think would be enrolled in the trials exactly? Anyway this is disingenuous and manipulative: everybody advocating for every medicine ever could say the same thing, and then where would we be? Should we just stop testing drugs because we can’t afford to waste even a single second? Like I said already, the research process has to be thorough because sick people can’t afford BS treatments. It needs to be as fast as is practicable but still be rigorous because that’s what will help the most people over the long term. You can say “Think of the children!” a million more times (I suspect you will), but that won’t change.
Even if JKander were to admit the existence of treatment failures, he’d have ready excuses. For example:
Note: this is one of the classic altie dodges, a.k.a. “you didn’t do it right”. Others include claiming that the person didn’t use the super-special version of the remedy, or that previous mainstream medical treatment ruined the patient.
“Long-term use of the drug lowers levels of the feel-good chemical dopamine in the striatum”
“The dopamine seeking system keeps us motivated to move through our world, learn, and survive). It’s not just about physical needs such as food, or sex, but also about abstract concepts. Dopamine makes us curious about ideas and fuels our searching for information.”
Dingdingding! JKander, this is something you seem to not understand. From what I can tell, moving to phase 2 clinical trials would actually increase the number of people these doctors can help - in the case of that epilepsy doctor, probably by about an order of magnitude.
Prediction: The response will be that the pesky FDA requires paperwork for this and there isn’t a moment to waste with that sort of regulatory nonsense when the children are at stake.
“Let’s just SKIP all this tedious RESEARCH into stupid ‘safety’ and ‘seeing if it actually works’ and whatnot and just GIVE IT TO EVERYONE RIGHT NOW because I KNOOOOOOOOW way deep down in my very tippy tip of my heart of hearts that it totally works, guys! Trust me! Come oooooooon!”
Can’t tell you how excited I am to see public health policy changed to this in the near future.
Hey JKander, fellow Terp alum here. (though considerably older). I’ve been following this thread, and while I know you’re probably a good guy trying to do a good thing, I’ve been wanting to pull my hair out reading some of your posts. What you don’t understand is that, there are many people on these boards who are educated and who work in science who are incredibly familiar with the inherent scientific illiteracy in your comments. We all know your arguments quite well. But all this has been said very eloquently by others throughout the thread and with an amazing amount of patience.
But I quote you above because this is a laudable goal. You want to treat a hospice center with cannabis? Great! But do it following strict scientific protocols, and record your data with extreme accuracy and transparency.
You’ve said multiple times throughout the thread stuff like “we can’t wait for the science! people are suffering! won’t someone please think of the children!!!..” (paraphrased). Or you’ve asked “what would you do if you knew the truth about this?”. I would urge people who are horribly sick with the huge list of ailments you claim can be treated to find ongoing studies looking for participants so that their cases could be useful as data for the benefit of our understanding of if and how the treatment works.
If the current state of research is lacking, that’s where I would put my energy: figure out how to get more experts to look at this under controlled scientific conditions. Look, you’ve put all that work and effort into compiling that report (no way I’m even entertaining the idea of reading a 100-page report that some dude who really doesn’t understand the basics of science linked to in a message board) which apparently consists mainly of anecdotes and completely lacks peer reviewed research published in respected journals. Why??? Put that energy into finding ways to get universities and professional scientific researchers interested in doing the necessary research. The hope should NOT be about waking people up to this miracle treatment so they all run to Colorado and get some. What an incredible waste of data that would be! (I’m not gonna bother to mention how incredibly dangerous and irresponsible that would be because others have touched on this plenty).
And just to repeat again what so many others have said over and over again: It doesn’t matter that you believe in it. It doesn’t matter that you have thousands or hundreds of gajillions of testimonials… or that you’ve actually seen it work!! or that you have theories about mechanisms of action. It doesn’t even matter if you are 100% correct. I mean that. It doesn’t matter. You very well might be. Cannabis might actually be the miracle cure for cancer, epilepsy, hiccups, and hangnails, and that would be amazingly awesome. But the only thing that matters is the data - good quality, scientifically controlled data, peer review, replication - what we as a society have agreed upon as our standard for separating good info from bad.
You may know a guy who’s a political genius, who could bring the political right and left together, solve the economy, health care, and bring peace in the middle east in a week. He’d still have to run in an election, and get voted in by the people before taking over as president. Just as I respect the political process of democratic society, I respect the scientific process as well. It’s there for a good reason, and you’re not above that.
What Moe said. JKander, not all publicity is good publicity. You got a lot of people here thinking about medicinal marijuana, but most of them think less of the movement as a whole as a direct result of your style of argumentation.
It doesn’t matter what any of you think. It would’ve been nice if I found people here to be supportive, and I was hoping that to be the case. But it’s clear this thread has more satisfied by desire for debate and discussion than the former goal. And I’m very happy with how it’s gone, I think I’m even happier than if I’d found support.
I understand the main problems you see with this, yet everybody here seems to think I’m some kind of idiot. I can’t say I’m surprised based on the claims I’m making, but I’m not stupid. I see every problem you’ve pointed out. The main criticisms I’ve seen are -
No methodology for choosing patients in my report
Seemingly ignoring failures and only focusing on successes
Extrapolating results from studies to humans
Saying that clinical trials are unnecessary to prove effectiveness
Confirmation bias, selection bias, fact people would only post successes and not failures on social media
I’m a 22-year old marketing major with no formal degree in any kind of scientific study. Furthermore, marketing is in my opinion the easiest of the business majors.
I feel like that generally covers it. Over this thread, I’ve addressed all of those topics, and in my report I address many of the problems as well.
Let me try to give a small summary about why I say cannabis extracts can reliably eliminate cancer in humans and control the majority of disease.
There are studies showing endocannabinoids, phytocannabinoids, and synthetic cannabinoids kill virtually any kind of cancer cell through a wide variety of mechanisms - changing gene expressions, modifying enzymatic processes, inducing apoptosis through receptor-dependent and independent mechanisms, and inhibiting angiogenesis. Even within each of those general categories, there are so many ways cannabinoids work.
Cannabinoids are already used widely within the human body to regulate critical processes. The body is programmed to use them. Even anandamide, an endocannabinoid produced by the body, kills cancer cells. This, combined with the fact that many cancer cells have higher expressions of cannabinoid receptors, suggests that the body is designed to have cannabinoids kill cancer cells. For example, anandamide and THC alike both induce apoptosis in the PC3 line of prostate cancer.
Studies also show that cannabinoids are therapeutically effective against virtually any disease, and because the endocannabinoid system seemingly acts as the systemic regulator of homeostasis in the body, it makes sense that cannabinoid medicine would heal nearly anything. When the body falls out of balance, which would result in disease, phytocannabinoids work through the endocannabinoid system to restore balance and eliminate disease. This is only theory, but it would explain why cannabinoid medicine is healing all these diseases in practice. Science has shown a potential way through which these miraculous healing properties could work, and people are actually doing it.
I’m not ignoring the failures. I’ve known many caregivers over the years, and when they’ve treated dozens to hundreds of people, the majority are successes. The few failures I’ve heard have been shared by people on forums and social media. I can’t say that there aren’t many other failures I haven’t heard about, but all the evidence from what people have posted, the dramatic nature of their recoveries, and the results of caregivers suggests that there isn’t a huge bank of failures being ignored.
I’ve seen this play out for over five and a half years. If this didn’t work, it wouldn’t have come this far. I could’ve told you when I was in high school that cannabis medicine would probably control any kind of epilepsy, including rare, severe forms. In fact, I think I was still in high school, or at most freshman year of college, when I helped get oil to a man with a severe form of epilepsy. He went longer without seizures on that oil than he had either in many months or years.
I have personally spoken with dozens upon dozens of patients over the last several years. It’s abundantly apparent to anyone who actually speaks with patients that these aren’t coincidences, and that the cannabis is really helping. Nothing, absolutely nothing, can replace talking with that many patients. It is that personal experience that lets me know cannabis extracts work in these ways. On top of that, I’ve seen doctors get involved that are now eliminating cancer in humans, dispensaries, corporations… I’ve seen it grow so much, from starting with literally just one video. This could not have happened if it didn’t work.
I personally tracked a close family friend who had aggressive prostate cancer as he used cannabis extract medicine, and the cancer was gone in six months. I’ve also followed the progress of terminal cancer patients who went into remission.
Top doctors are calling for the same things I am. You all have said that at best, these preliminary results should maybe result in clinical trials. I have said that we have enough for people to start using this medicine immediately, and we can’t wait. You have brought up concerns about safety, efficacy, etc. But the University of Utah’s top pediatric neurologist said that high-CBD medicine must be available to children with epilepsy as soon as possible. He didn’t say that the results indicate we must move this to clinical trials or that it shows great promise. He said should be available as soon as possible to Utah children with severe epilepsy. According to you all, this is the incorrect approach, but it is the one both myself and this doctor advocate.
This is a crazy world - why of all the alternative treatments, this one turned out to be the real miracle, is impossible to say. But this is real. This is a miraculous medicine. This is the evidence of the real power of nature. As I’ve said, this breaks the rules of science. No medicine should feasibly work for so much so well. Someone mentioned a law that the more conditions a medicine is claimed to work for, the less effective it is. That’s a law that is blatantly broken by cannabis medicine - it works for nearly anything with miraculous effectiveness. That’s one of the elements which makes this so different.
I just remembered, someone was taking my phrase “This is the kind of disconnected thinking that is problematic” out of context, apparently attributing it to me responding to the University logic professor. I was saying that science has created a disconnection between you all and the patients. You completely dismiss their testimonies, saying they are worthless and meaningless and nobody should make decisions based off what they’ve gone through. That is a serious problem and a serious lack of compassion. If you all would actually read my report, you would see that each and every case is special in its own way, and contributes undeniable value to my claims.
These experiences also are very clear cut. I’ve seen other alternative medicine testimonies where you really can’t tell if it was the alternative treatment that did it, or if it was something else. Or there were mixed results, or it was used directly alongside traditional treatment every time. This is completely different - the results are on a whole different level. For example, there is Josh, a patient of River Rock with Behcet’s disease and Stevens-Johnson syndrome. No pharmaceuticals were working to control these extremely rare diseases, and he was in immense suffering. He now has gotten off the majority or all his pharmaceuticals, and is controlling his conditions with River Rock’s cannabis. He stated that every doctor he’s seen, including those from NYU, Johns Hopkins, and University of Colorado, agree his current state is an absolute miracle and the only explanation is his cannabis usage.
It’s clear in Josh’s case that it wasn’t something else which led to his miraculous recovery. He started using a product for which scientific foundations suggested there may be benefit, and there was. It’s that simple. And it has kept happening over and over for years, and it’s not going to stop. What exists is enough for people to put their hope into this medicine and for people to begin using it immediately. And more doctors are starting to see this reality, like the top University of Utah doctor.
This thread is so perfect in so many ways. Once things begin to change, it will be a great tool for illustrating the dangers of limited thinking and why we need to truly realize our own power. I’m really happy with how this has gone
In marketing, when you start to believe your own bullshit you’ve lost. Save the "If I smile a lot I can convince them that I’m a winner!’ pablum for your true believer forums, because that doesn’t work with an educated audience. You’ve even managed to turn away those who supported your cause with your wild claims. You lost here big time-you know it, and we know it.
