Cannabis Extracts for the Primary Treatment of Cancer, Epilepsy, and More

Great Debates
201

Hey JKander welcome.

Part of my job involves teaching Critical Thinking and Logic classes at a university. I happen to have just gone over this kind of thing just within the past month. Not cancer/cannabis specifically, but the issue of personal experience vs scientific research.

The thing about your experience (and I don’t mean to single you out, I mean everyone here) is that your brain is designed to bias you toward conclusions that you like. (Or if it’s wrong to say it’s “designed” that way, it is a fact that its structure causes this to happen. In all of us.) This means, among other things, that when you see successes that seem to support your theory, you remember them, and when you see failures that don’t seem to support your theory, you forget them. You mentioned above that it has seemed to you to almost always work. But your impression that it almost always works isn’t worth much (I don’t mean to judge you here “as a person,” rather, I’m saying you yourself shouldn’t trust your impressions here) because if you’ve encountered a lot of failures as well, you’ve tended to forget about them or downplay them in your mind. You have no idea that you’re doing this–it’s totally subconscious. But we know this is how people work, and so we know that we can’t take anyone’s impression that something always works very seriously–even when it’s our own impression.

Scientific methodologies are designed to get around these kinds of biases. They set research up in a way that makes sure that the information gained is available for everyone to objectively examine, that the information takes into account both successes and failures, that the information (to the extent possible) is about just a single variable and not a mess of variables with unclear relationships. And so on. These are methods that have been honed over hundreds of years, intended to counteract deceptive tendencies contained in our brains that have had millions of years to evolve.

It is not a judgment on you, your value as a person, or your sincerity or general trustworthiness, when I say that I can’t really take any of what you’re saying into account. You’re talking about something you want to be true, and you’re not reporting information gathered by any known objective method. This means it doesn’t really matter how much you’ve seen. No matter how many reports you have, none of it gives me, or anyone else, (or, really, even you) a good reason to believe anything, because the conclusions you draw from your information just don’t follow from that information. For your conclusions to follow, we would need not just more information but information of an entirely different kind. Information about what happens in double blind trials. Information about plausible causal mechanisms. Things like that.

202

Regarding Charlotte, even if every sentence in what you report is correct, it at best suggests that research might be justified here. It doesn’t justify a conclusion that the drug in question definitely has the effect you’re suggesting. And even if it does have that effect, we have no idea what other effects it may have.

203

This is the kind of disconnected thinking that is problematic. You say, “at best it suggests that research might be justified here.” But what about people with epileptic children now? For whom nothing else has worked and this shows promise? Should they just wait around for research? No! This isn’t my statement - it’s there’s. They haven’t waited. They’ve gone to Colorado, started using this oil for their children, and it is controlling their epileptic conditions in a way no other pharmaceutical has. When people take decisive action using this level of high-quality medicine from nature, they are rewarded.

When you are in pain, when your life is on the line, you don’t ignore reality. These people have seen the clear results in front of them and done something, with success.

As for “we don’t know the long-term effects in children”, cannabis is completely non-toxic and in fact exerts neuroprotective effects. That’s why it works so well on epilepsy, because it’s healing the brain. Moreover, high-CBD cannabis oil doesn’t even get you high, and that’s what will be used in the future. There’s no doubt this isn’t harming the children, not only because of the science which suggests no such thing, but because it’s helping them so much.

As for all that confirmation bias stuff, you talk as if I am not aware of these principles. I understand the problems you see here - the confirmation bias, the selection bias, lack of double-blind trials, drawing conclusions from a seemingly low number of people, etc. I’ve taken into account everything you’ve said here.

I have been deeply involved in this movement for years. I understand exactly what I’ve seen over the years, and it’s been a majority of successes. I am absolutely not suppressing or forgetting failures. I remember several specific failures, just like I remember successes. You remember them because of the emotion. When something has emotional attachment, it isn’t easily forgotten. I remember so many cases, and the bottom line is most are extremely successful.

So no, I haven’t forgotten about cases or downplayed them. There’s no doubt I want this to be true, as I’m sure you all would as well, but that has nothing to do with the evidence. My personal desires mean nothing. All that matters is the objective evidence - what the studies say and what the people report through their testimonies and medical evidence. And seeking out that objective truth is what resulted in the content that comprises my report.

Ahh, had to address this:

Blatantly false. It, at least, suggests that research is absolutely needed here.

204

Cannabis is not harmless. I don’t believe it deserves to be a schedule 1 drug but no herb, medication or any substance that alters the body in any way is without side effects.
And there is strong evidence that marijuana use by teens carries risk for permanent brain injury or alteration.

http://www.barrington.ri.gov/bayteam/MarijuanaTeenUse.pdf

http://www.ceasar.org/about/TeenBrainandMj2012.pdf

And for the record, I am actually in favor of legalizing marijuana. I’m also aware it has risks, just less than alcohol or tobacco.

205

I see I actually double-addressed that last point, but it deserves it anyway.

206

Admit it man. You were high, and forgot you already addressed it.

:smiley:

207

I looked over those reports now and have seen several things like this over the years - that cannabis use can inhibit brain development and cause schizophrenia and other mental problems. As I said before with the pro-cancer studies, the studies showing benefits outweigh these negative studies, and the evidence I’ve seen all suggests that it helps the brain in humans, not hurts it. Given the miraculous recoveries people are experiencing and all the studies suggesting neuroprotective effects, I don’t believe cannabis use damages the human brain. In any case, for the families with epileptic children, it’s abundantly clear that the high-CBD oil is worth any potential risks, especially when compared to the pharmaceuticals they were already using.

208

I had actually been re-reading the post and saw that statement, and in the moment it struck me how off it was and I immediately edited my post to comment on it. Then the five minutes passed and I saw I mentioned it initially, yet could no longer edit. Like I said, I still feel like it’s good to address twice.

209

Fail.

210

This explains much. :slight_smile:

211

But the people who went to Colorado to take this drug had no idea whether they were tracking reality or not. Sure it could be, for all we know, that this turns out to be the miracle cure but even if that turns out to be the case, it won’t mean the people who went to Colorado in the story you told us were rationally justified in doing so. It would only mean that they got lucky. Plenty of other people–a hugely greater number of people–do similar things on insufficient evidence and get burned.

If they got lucky and this is the miracle cure, we can celebrate with them! But we shouldn’t imitate them. To imitate them would be akin to using the same numbers as the previous lottery winner since “it worked for him.” Maybe we’ll get lucky, but probably we won’t.

That is good! Can you tell me how you’ve taken it into account?

I haven’t read about the case in detail so I’m just going to withhold judgment on that, rather than doubling down on what I said.

212

Hmmm. If you repeat yourself eight or nine more times, dude, maybe THEN I’ll believe you.

213

This thread needs its own theme song.

214

You’re right, even if it works out, it doesn’t mean they were rationally justified. It was seemingly only Charlotte and a few other cases that instigated these families to make this decision, and I’m not sure exactly how much they looked into this before making the decision. If they extensively analyzed the situation, I have no doubt they would’ve been justified, but it’s possible some of them just saw the documentary and started making plans to move. And many people have indeed put everything into last resorts and failed. This is relatively irrelevant to the actual effectiveness of the medicine, but it is interesting philosophically.

There are several ways one can take into account various biases. For one, by the very nature of being intensely focused on something, I can keep track of the trends. I know I haven’t been missing huge amounts of failures because I simply remember. The vast majority of cases are successes, that’s what I’ve seen. If you want to believe I’ve forgotten things, there’s nothing I can do except say I haven’t.

I’ve also discussed this issue with dozens of people over the years, showing them the evidence and getting input. Nobody who I’ve showed all the evidence to has been able to dispute this adequately, not even you. There are still so many things that haven’t been addressed, and I know we won’t get to them (especially since it seems like no one is planning on actually reading the report). However, when people really look into this, the truth is plainly apparent.

None of you have spoken to a single actual patient. I’ve spoken with at least 75, and that’s very conservative. And I’ve spoken with caregivers who have treated hundreds of people, reporting the majority of success. That’s how I know it works. And it’s not just random people who are reporting majority success - as I’ve stated many times, Dr. Margaret Gedde found 9 of the 11 epilepsy patients had 90-100% reductions in seizures, after nothing else had worked. That’s miraculous success for a majority of the cases. All I’m saying is that other people have been seeing those same rates of success too, and they’ve been seeing it for years.

In any case, when you speak to people… that’s when it gets real. It really does. You can say it’s not scientific, that it’s meaningless, but it’s simply not. Especially when they are talking about serious issues, like getting off hundreds of milligrams of opiates by only using cannabis oil. Pain levels of 10 to 0. This is as real as it gets, and that’s what drives my passion for this.

216

Dude, if you have a BA in Marketing, and believe there is nothing a university professor can teach you about logic, this is not the place for you.

217

You’re right, there are four federal cannabis patients as part of the IND program. I met one of them at the Reform Conference about a month ago, she was quite funny. Glaucoma was indeed the condition she’d gotten into the program for. She said back in the 80s her doctor said if she didn’t smoke marijuana, she’d go blind. And now all these years later, she can still see.

When did I say I believed there was nothing a university professor can teach me about logic? That’s just blatant straw man stuff there, I’m sorry. I’ve never professed to know everything and I would love to learn the intimate details of logic at some point. I remember my one friend took a logic class, it gets pretty crazy at the higher levels. I obviously (I’m sure some here will dispute that) understand the basic principles of logic, and I make use of it extensively when talking about this. But if people don’t look at the evidence, even the best logic will always fail.

218

Wow, this is pretty incredible. I can’t believe I’d missed this. Just yesterday, there was this article which came out. I’m also going to quote some key parts.

University of Utah doctors: Say ‘yes’ to cannabis oil for kids

"Three Utah doctors, including the University of Utah’s top pediatric neurologist, have come out in support of families seeking access to a cannabis extract that has proven successful at stopping seizures.

“I would like to express my strong belief that [cannabidiol]-based oils (referred to here in Utah as Alepsia) should be available as soon as possible to Utah children with severe epilepsy. The substance is not psychoactíve or hallucinogenic, it contains less THC than do other materials that can be legally purchased in Utah, and it has absolutely no abuse potential,” declared Francis Filloux, chief of the U.’s Division of Pediatric Neurology, in a letter shared Tuesday with Utah’s Controlled Substances Advisory Committee.

The letter was also signed by two other pediatric neurologists at the university, Helen Barkan and Lynne Kerr — the first Utah physicians to publicly endorse cannabis as a viable treatment for children with severe, intractable epilepsy.

Filloux has cared for children with epilepsy for 25 years, specializing in Dravet syndrome.

Citing “extensive pre-clinical” data and case studies about Dravet syndrome patients finding seizure relief from marijuana extracts high in cannabidiol (CBD) and low in tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), the compound that gives users a high, Filloux argues CBD oil appears to be safe and holds "great promise as an anti-epileptic agent…

‘I know we have that image to overcome in Utah, that it’s another oil, another miracle oil,’ said Cameron May of Pleasant Grove who wants Alepsia for his son who has Dravet syndrome. ‘But people do not uproot their families, sell their homes, leave their relatives and move out of state on a hope.’"

I’ve been criticized here for saying this medicine should be used in children, for advocating for its immediate use with too little data. But here is a top pediatric oncologist calling for the use of the medicine “as soon as possible.” Exactly what I’ve been saying this whole time, we need it as soon as possible. We can’t wait for the clinical trials. And top doctors agree with me, we can’t wait because we already know it’s working. So is this guy as crazy as me?

219

Cannabis oil (and not directly marijuana) for dealing with seizures, not for curing cancer. And sure, some people are going to advocate it, even doctors. What happens then is the FDA gets the results of clinical trials, verifies the results, and approves the use for specific treatments. Then, and only then, we agree it’s a good treatment for dealing with seizures (but not cancer or epilepsy or anything else until there are controlled studies).

In this case, that’s for seizures, not for cancer. Yes, you’ve been RIGHTFULLY criticized for claiming a miracle cure for cancer, epilepsy, and more. This one article (not study but article) shows a POTENTIAL benefit for seizures. In other words, a palliative, not a cure. It’s like taking pain medication for a migraine. It doesn’t cure the migraine, it just makes the symptoms more manageable. Taking this one result and extrapolating to others is EXACTLY the same as selling snake oil.

What is your story again? Because you’re jumping all over the place and still show no signs of understanding how science works, how chemical reactions work, nor how the drug approval process works. Worse, you seem to have no real feel for nuance.

220

JKander, I’ve been following this thread with rapt attention and I must say, you’ve convinced me. This is going to revolutionize the way we look at medicine and maybe even the human body. We can’t wait. So I’m ready. What do I do?? :confused: What’s your goal here?

221

This isn’t just reducing seizures, this is affecting the epileptic conditions themselves. These children are recovering in ways far exceeding the reductions in seizures. They are communicating, learning, interacting. The parents are ecstatic that they can finally have relationships with their children for the first time. I’ve seen these parents testimonies. You all talk about this so abstractly and distantly… but it’s real. And that’s what makes this so serious and urgent. This is absolutely not just a palliative.

And I’m not taking this one result and extrapolating to others. This is just another amazing thing, no different from what I’ve seen over the past five and a half years. Only it’s happening faster now, because more people are using the oil and seeing these results.

Has anybody else been in an alternative medicine debate, where during the debate, a new article comes out where a top doctor calls for the same thing the OP is? I can’t imagine a case where it’s been so. And to be specific, I mean calling for the immediate use of a medicine for a disease, which he is.

These results for epilepsy are amazing. Beginning to induce remission of all symptoms within 48 hours, bringing hundreds to thousands of seizures a week down to nothing… these are miraculous. And what I’m saying is these types of miraculous results extend beyond epilepsy. There are people using this medicine for all kinds of things and seeing these same results, and the scientific research, just like that which suggests cannabis might be effective for epilepsy, suggests it might be effective for cancer and every other condition people are reporting benefits to.

Once again, if people simply read the report, you’ll see why my cancer claims are not unfounded. These types of cases I’ve collected are the same types of cases which have caused doctors to advocate for this medicine and demand it be used as soon as possible. So saying it’s worthless is no longer adequate, because less than what I have in this report has been enough for doctors to make these calls.