First sentence: Many today may be aware that Bob Marley died from cancer, and that he died very prematurely. He was only 36 when cancer killed him.
How’s that for anecdotal evidence? :smack:
It’s important to note that smoking cannabis does nothing to combat cancer and very little for protection. Many cannabis smokers die of cancer every day. It’s substantial ingestion of high-quality extracted oils that protects and treats cancer.
There have been many things no one has challenged me on yet. No one has challenged the medical documentation of terminal cancer patients now in remission, or Dr. Courtney’s brain cancer success, or Dr. Melamede’s documented skin cancer success, or the incredible experiences of River Rock and Realm of Caring. The results those two organizations alone have achieved is stunning. River Rock is even healing paralysis. If you guys want to see serious results right now that by themselves are powerful, visit http://riverrockcolorado.com/learn.php to see their videos. You must invest time in researching this to believe it, but if you do so, you’ll see the truth. All of these results are summarized in the report, of course, so that saves time.
I don’t see how this is relevant to the question of whether it works or not. Given how widely grown and used the stuff is, I’m tempted to say you should have more anecdotes.
A lot of things kill cancer cells in cultures. It’s a starting point for research, but it doesn’t prove much.
No, that’s not what that means. Tumor cells (and all cells) have plenty of kind of receptors. It doesn’t prove anything unique about cannabinoids.
This is the kind of thing sensible people should be skeptical of. Nothing is good for everything- that’s snake oil stuff. And in general the evidence here is weak.
These are anecdotes, though. And ideally people should be looking at this stuff rationally, not with their hearts (or wallets). We all want cancer treatments that work better. That doesn’t mean we should go by hope alone.
Well, with this amount of miraculous healing going on, it won’t be suppressed much longer by that evil medical establishment.
Did you come to this site because you thought the “Straight Dope” was a site for cannabis enthusiasts?
And the whole fountain of youth thing? Do you understand how crazy that sounds?
Great. You tell me when you get your Nobel, and I’ll go buy a tutu and some frilly leggings.
I hope you don’t hold it against me that I didn’t read your report in full. It’s a lot to ask, especially given that your prior credibility is basically negative due to your background (Phoenixtears).
The general disbelief has a lot to do with the fact that this pattern drawn is the exact same pattern we see in god knows how many baloney quack fixes. It’s based primarily on testimonials, with very little actual hard evidence. It’s not published in peer-reviewed journals. It makes claims which are patently absurd on their face - not necessarily wrong, mind you, but absurd.
Cannabinoids have a lot of theraputic effects. By all means, show us the studies. By all means, conduct further research. By all means, publish your results in peer-reviewed journals and invite actual oncologists to look over your work. But don’t push out a half-baked, over-long report (did anyone here read it in full? Anyone?) that seems to be a little heavy on appeals to emotion and personal anecdotes and offer it up to a group of people who, ostensibly, are not oncologists, or indeed medical doctors of any kind, or indeed scientists of any kind. That’s essentially quack propagation 101. When I look at the studies you cite, I admit - I often don’t understand what they mean. But given your background, I am not taking your word for it.
At a glance…
Conspiracy nutter with no formal medical training, shamanic nutter with no formal medical training, has his own Whale.to page, not even sure if you’re serious at this point, couldn’t find anything on Kyle Marsh or Tony Verzura, sells cannabis but has zero actual medical credentials, first actual doctor on the list (6 articles on pubmed - 3 opinion pieces, 3 papers with little to do with cannabinoids), second actual doctor on the list (no published papers about cannabinoids), and two more nobodies.
…Yeah. Nice star-studded lineup you have there.
…Okay, cite.
Of course, if you ask Jim Humble about his program, he’ll claim the same thing - that he sees the same degree of miraculous results from people drinking what amounts to diluted bleach (no, seriously). What’s missing, from this just like from Humble’s, is any sort of verification. Any verification that these effects work this way. We see tons of stories like this, but they prove very hard to verify. Maybe yours is real; if it is, you’re doing yourself and everyone else a massive disservice by presenting this to us, rather than, I dunno, JAMA, or PLOS, or even Nature.
It really all comes back to this: you tell me when you get your Nobel, and I’ll go buy a tutu and some frilly leggings. I’m not an oncologist; I’m not as educated in this subject as some. But I have a damn good bullshit meter. And when something like this is having so much trouble getting into peer-reviewed journals despite supposedly being so revolutionary that the people involved resort to essentially claiming that there’s some conspiracy, then that sets it off like nobody’s business.
Interestingly enough I did think this was a site for cannabis enthusiasts at first, but honestly am glad that it wasn’t. I’m glad it’s more a site like this, and I’m truly impressed by the challenges I’m seeing from you all. Thank you for analyzing this with the rigor expected for such monumental claims. I also see this forum as one possible path - that of the intelligent people here, someone can do something. At the very least, I simply desire to debate with people about this, and I know that good will come of it somehow.
You’re right in regards to the people I cited. Most have no formal medical training or have published few papers. But they are all experiencing and delivering amazing results with cannabis. The thing is, you don’t need to be a doctor to eliminate cancer. You can literally be a janitor who extracts some cannabis oil with Everclear in your closet. That’s what makes this so different, that anyone can do it. If you listen to the results so many have achieved - being on the brink of death, and recovering nearly instantly with cannabis oil - it’s clearly not a coincidence.
I also need to point out that I’m not Rick Simpson, and while I am webmaster of PhoenixTears.ca, I don’t necessarily agree with everything he’s said. That fountain of youth stuff included. There’s a lot of disagreement within this movement about a lot of things, and there’s actually many people who strongly dislike or even hate Rick for some of the things he’s said. Even the cannabis oil movement is divided, but we all agree that cannabis extracts can eliminate cancer in humans, and now more people are starting to see that.
I refer to dozens of scientific studies in my report. The trend is that cannabinoids are therapeutically implicated in virtually every disease. And that’s what makes this harder to believe, because of the fact it works against so much, that’s what creates this disbelief. But because of the fundamental nature of the endocannabinoid system, and the ability of cannabinoids to restore homeostasis, that is apparently why it works against nearly anything. And it’s not just one study indicating these things - over decades, cannabinoids have been implicated in healing so many diseases and providing regulatory functions. Endocannabinoid systems are present in all vertebrates and originated early in evolution. This is straight out of the peer-reviewed research.
It’s because that even endocannabinoids like anandamide kill cancer cells that it makes sense externally administered phytocannabinoids would also work. And the higher expressions of cannabinoid receptors is only suggestive of a last-resort protective effort, it doesn’t prove it but the evidence suggests that’s why the cancer cells have these higher levels. One study also shows that liver cancer patients with higher expressions of cannabinoid receptors have better disease-free survival rates than patients with lower expression levels. So in general, the evidence supports that cannabinoids are designed to heal cancer at the most fundamental levels.
Also, that Jim Humble stuff, Miracle Mineral Supplement, seems terrible. “Extremely nasty stuff, and the medical advice given is that anyone who has this product should stop using it immediately and throw it away. In Canada it was banned after causing a life-threatening reaction.” You won’t find stuff like this about cannabis oil. It’s not even on the FDA’s 187 Fake Cancer Cures page, because it’s not fake 
http://www.fda.gov/drugs/guidancecomplianceregulatoryinformation/enforcementactivitiesbyfda/ucm171057.htm
I also don’t believe there is a conspiracy to suppress this medicine. Rick Simpson and many others believe such, but I simply think it’s a combination of disbelief, ignorance, regulatory, social and cultural barriers. It’s a very complex issue that I can’t even begin to understand about why this isn’t out yet, but the Sanjay Gupta documentary about Charlotte Figi really increased awareness.
So, Kander, what is your level of scientific expertise to be judging the merits of these claims? Highest degree achieved in academia, and in which subject area? It sounds like you are an IT guy (not that there’s anything wrong with it!)
Also, we will note you didn’t come clean about the lack of academic bona fides in your breathlessly touted sources until challenged.
Moonshine treatment for cancer. No, that’s not a scary thought at all.
I don’t think you understand how hard actual scientists have to work to prevent coincidences and randomness from interfering with their results. ‘I know eight people who were cured and maybe four or six who weren’t?’ Talk about unconvincing!
There are many academics in this movement, all the researchers who have done the studies showing cannabinoids therapeutic effectiveness in culture/animal studies. They are as much a part of this movement as anyone, and their expertise has been extremely critical in providing scientific foundations. Dr. Melamede and Dr. Courtney, while not having published extensive material, have done a lot of great work.
So what is my level of expertise, you ask? I am a 22-year old who just graduated from the University of Maryland, College Park with a Bachelor’s degree in Marketing. I also deliver sandwiches for Jimmy John’s. It’s funny, when I went to the Reform Conference in Denver to share my report, there were several times where I joked about being a simple sandwich delivery person, yet telling these people the cure for cancer. But the reception was surprisingly well, from doctors, lawyers, executive directors, researchers, policy activists, dispensary workers, and more. The evidence is simply overwhelming, to anyone who takes the time to read it. I am sorry the report is so long, but to support this magnitude of claims, you need a lot of evidence. That’s just how it works.
Interestingly enough I already feel the report is outdated because just the last two weeks have been incredible, especially with the latest news of new Stanley patients. Nine out of eleven patients with severe forms of epilepsy experiencing 90-100% reductions in seizures with high-CBD oil, when nothing else worked… just that alone is incredible, and it’s only the beginning. This news came out after my report, and is further evidence that these results will keep being replicated until it’s finally taken seriously.
Although my credentials are not traditionally impressive, I’ve been in this movement for over five years, and the evidence I’ve collected, regardless of my personal identity, stands alone. And although I don’t understand the specifics of every scientific study I analyze, I understand the most important parts. In the conclusion section of each study, the authors state in relatively plain English what the conclusion was. This cannabinoid induced apoptosis, inhibited angiogensis, stopped metastasis, down-regulated the ID-1 gene, provided postsynaptic feedback, etc. It’s not hard for anyone to understand. When they get into the real crazy stuff, like the specific protein channel pathways cannabinoids work through, that’s where my lack of expertise causes problems, but in the general stuff, even a teenager could understand.
It’s important to note that the alcohol is evaporated off. Alcohol-based tinctures were used in medicine for thousands of years, and still today. That popular flower-based tincture Rescue Remedy is extracted with alcohol. It’s just a good solvent, and if there’s residue, it’s not that big a deal, compared with petro-solvents where even just a small amont can cause serious problems. A drop of alcohol left over likely won’t cause harm.
Also, the eight people cured of skin cancer were just the skin cancer cases, and they are very compelling. If you analyze the cases in the report, it’s easy to see these aren’t random coincidences - to say so requires a lot of mental gymnastics. All in all, I’d say I’ve personally seen well over 150 successes for various conditions, and heard distributors I know refer to hundreds more. Not everybody records their testimonial, even the dozens of experiences I have in my report are just a small section of this movement. I haven’t personally collected every testimonial and haven’t included all the testimonials I do have, because I believe the report, at its length of 100 pages, is enough to convince people that this is real. And I guarantee, if anybody takes the time to read every word in it, you’ll see the substance to this.
So, you expect people to buy medicines from someone who can’t even count up to six?
This is why you need actual studies, not just anecdotes. You think the number of failures is only about five… But you haven’t actually been keeping count. Maybe there are more that you’re just not remembering off the top of your head. Maybe there are a lot more. Likewise, you think that there’s some number of successes (extrapolating from the “4-6 failures” and “80-90% success”, that’d be about 20-50 successes), but maybe there are less than that. And then you have to ask, were those people taking any other medicines, or pursuing any other treatment? If so, then how do you know if it was your treatment that did the trick, and not the other ones? If not, then how can you justify keeping your patients away from treatments that are known (known, mind you, not just guessed) to have some success?
You say that a lot. 
I wasn’t talking about the alcohol, though. I was talking about your statement about anybody being able to cure his own cancer at home.
How do you know that?
You have a talent for saying things that reduce my confidence. Do you understand how important the rigorous and controlled collection of data is in real science?
Length does not = convincing.
I’m trying not to make a terrible pun about substances. Stop tempting me.
I’m sorry, but I don’t think you have the necessary background in the sciences to make pronouncements about the evidence as published. As noted upthread, a lot of things in a petri dish will kill cancer cells.
You came to a website you thought was pot enthusiasts to do marketing.
I’m out.
And non-cancerous cells, too.
And when consumed regularly in large doses along with unevaporated Everclear mixed with grape Kool-Aid (AKA: Purple Jesus) it might even cause you to forget you have terminal cancer.
JKander, you and I are about the same age, so I’m going to go into full condescension mode and tell you some things. Dope is great fun and it has some medicinal qualities we know about, and it may have others we don’t yet know, but nothing is the magical cure-all you describe. And nothing can be, because cancer is not a monolithic disease with a single cause like, say, smallpox. Believing cannabis is like that is, frankly, childish, and 1970 was a long time ago. It’s time to put your Cheech and Chong thinking behind you and learn more about what it can and can NOT do before you put any more of your readers’ lives in danger by spewing dangerous bullshit.
That’s right, like how bleach kills any cancer cells but obviously wouldn’t work in humans. And as I stated, I did initially think this was cannabis related but had found this forum because it was listed on the biggestboards.com website, and I came to it because of its size and the fact it was generally focused. There’s a lot of big forums dedicated to gaming, cars, guns, etc., but this one was focused on intellectual topics and debate. So that’s why I’ve chosen to focus on this forum, and with the powerful responses I’ve gotten, I know I made the right choice.
I don’t know everything about this movement. There are doubtless more failures I haven’t accounted for, like there are more successes I haven’t accounted for, because I either don’t know about them, forgot about them over time, etc. That doesn’t change the fact of trends. The fact that individuals, doctors, dispensaries, corporations, and teams have all had success eliminating cancer in humans. The fact that there are hundreds of scientific studies showing cannabinoids are therapeutically effective against virtually any disease, and those are indeed peer-reviewed. When the vast experiential evidence is analyzed alongside the science, it’s clear what’s going on.
As to why these aren’t random coincidences - if someone is dying, starts taking cannabis oil, and immediately starts to recover, it’s unlikely they started recovering for some other reason, especially if they were about to die. And if such remarkable experiences have been replicated continuously over years by many different people, it’s even less likely it’s coincidence. And if there are scientific studies indicating such things would potentially be possible, even less likely of coincidence. It’s just so much.
What has been going on is in no way up to the standards of modern science, but that doesn’t mean its worthless. For thousands of years, people used herbal medicines with effectiveness, despite never having run a single clinical trial. The scientific method has delivered so much and will continue to be extremely important for so many things, but it has also greatly reduced people’s faith in their own power, their own power to heal and their faith in other humans. It’s hard to identify when something is truly real and revolutionary because of all the bullshit that gets in the way, like actually fake cancer cures. There is more support for this than any other alternative medicine, and my report makes that clear.
You can’t just assert “it’s unlikely this is a coincidence.” You have to rule out confounding factors. That’s not of minor importance.
They also didn’t live as long as we did and struggled to cure diseases like cancer. I think you’ve drawn the wrong conclusion here.
There’s not much I can address here, you didn’t say anything of substance. And for all the ways cancers are different - the different causes, different mechanisms of formation, everything - there are universal similarities. Abnormal cells, abnormal differentiation, abnormal spreading. It is because cannabis works at fundamental levels that it works against not only nearly any type of cancer, but nearly any kind of disease. Below is a list of studies with hundreds of entries, and I analyze the specifics of dozens of them in my report.
http://letfreedomgrow.com/cmu/grannyslist-jan2011.pdf
As for the herbal medicines thing, it’s true they were fighting far different diseases than us. But the fact is, they were still treating conditions with effectiveness with herbal medicines, and we don’t need to understand every scientific detail of a medicine for it to work. Regardless of our understanding, reality operates independently.
This is gibberish.
I should clarify what I mean by “fundamental levels”. So many pharmaceuticals just treat symptoms or aim to target specific pathways while ignoring the consequences to other pathways, which results in side effects. Cannabinoids work at a fundamental level - regulating communication between cells, interacting with DNA, etc. One study postulates there is an “ancient role for cannabinoid receptors as axonal regulators of neuronal signaling.” That’s pretty fundamental, as all nervous system messages originate with the action potential sent through the axon.