I don’t think Zemo had a (d) - I think he basically knew that whatever outome of his activating Bucky - it would continue to go ‘his way’ - superfight was a bonus, as it further set (a) ‘destroy avengers’ and (b) ‘keep world against supers’ in motion.
He knows/plans that the effort to get Bucky will continue to escalate
he knows that Cap will continue to try and protect him -
he knows that as soon as he has something to show Stark - that it will even more so escalate between Stark and Rogers - which further divides the team.
IOW - the superfight wasn’t part of his plan specifically - but it didn’t hurt the outcome at all.
It’s just a question of emphasis, I guess: if he expected a superfight or two to happen as a result of activating Bucky, and the ensuing superfights then happened so as to produce an even better outcome than (a)-(c), then I’d call that a (d).
Again, it could’ve played out so well as to make the (a)-(c) part irrelevant: if enough folks get killed in the airport fight, then Zemo gets the videotape for – what? Show it to Tony, who’s dead? Use it to piss people off about Bucky, who was already Public Enemy #1 and is also now dead? Use it against Cap, who is dead too?
Heck, we’d all be in this thread going, yeah, so, what the hell was that all about? He had a perfectly good plan that killed off all those Avengers; why did he put so much work into getting that videotape? It didn’t help him at all!
(Incidentally, I said “superfights” there, because: upon leaving his cell with orders from Zemo, just how close did Bucky get to killing Tony? Or getting killed by T’Challa? Or both? And if that happens, then it’s all good for Zemo’s general plan, but means he no longer needs to bother with the videotape in particular.)
So I figure that (d) – being entirely foreseeable by Zemo, and possibly getting him results so good as to make acquiring the videotape pointless – may well count as part of his official plan. (No, not a necessary part; but potentially a sufficient one, which could’ve made the “videotape” part unnecessary.)
Its all good - I simply don’t buy into Zemo planning (or caring about) each step - he knows he needs to get to Bucky directly to get the info he needs so
a) sets Bucky up with a high profile bombing, bucky gets captured
b) finds out where he’s kept - gets himself way in
c) activates bucky - gets info - lets(?) bucky loose
d) people chase bucky - forget about zemo
Superfight, bucky escaping, which supers live/die/etc are almost immaterial to him. I’m guessing if Tony/Rogers die before he gets the tape - his goal is still met and now he has info to expose how evil government is? IOW - I’m ‘guessing’ that if the superfight ended up with all the key members dead/team destroyed - he may have just stopped and went back to the simple life.
Remember - he never planned to be caught - and when caught, he attempted suicide instead of having to answer -
If zemo’s concern is with the damage the supers do - him intentionally setting up a big super fight seems counter to his goal as well - he already had the tide turning - he just wanted/needed more info to continue turning the team against itself and the world against them
Well, again, if they all die in the airport fight, he just says “mission accomplished” and erases his wife’s message and shoots himself, right?
Doesn’t seem any more counter to it than killing all those innocents, and apparently not a single super, at that conference bombing. (By contrast, the airport superfight is like his platonic ideal: nobody but supers battling each other!)
Right - thats the half thought coming out - he hates the supers for killing his family, innocent bystanders - yet kills innocent bystanders to further his own agenda.
The only reason the airport superfight has only supers is because it was evacuated so the supers had room to fight.
I just want to add that this thread would be hilarious if we amended every comment.
“They evacuated the airport for a fight between supers, and Hawkeye.”
“Zemo was trying to eliminate the threat of superpowered beings, and Hawkeye.”
“His plan was to set the world against supers, and Hawkeye.”
Just imagine the movie doing that with Every. Single. Line.
I agree to an extent, in the MCU it makes sense for something like the accords to be put on the table. (The same issue in the comics is another matter entirely). What I was mainly trying to get at, is that of the three scenes Ross plays, two of them aren’t really relevant to the argument he’s making. NYC in particular, the Avengers were operating under the auspices of an authority in SHIELD, and given the ‘world security council’ people shown, apparently an internationally controlled body. The Avengers were originally created by SHIELD.
That’s what I meant by ‘in character’ If I was Ross wouldn’t you have used footage from the events of both Thor movies. (Yes I understand Thor wasn’t in the movie, blah blah).
Saw it yesterday and enjoyed a lot of it. I thought the best use of the 3-D was at Peggy’s funeral. I like cathedrals. The scene between Tony and Peter was very well done–I was glad to read afterward that Tony’s going to be in next year’s Spider-Man movie. I’d love to see a snark-off between Tony and J. Jonah Jameson. The battle at the airport was great–it really reminded me of battles in the comics (which I used to read) because you have combatants who aren’t just nameless aliens/robots to mow down. They have powers and smarts. My favorite bit was the “Throw this at that” thing with Ant-Man and Captain America.
Oh, one more thing. I like Hawkeye’s character! (So that’s one person.)
And I agree with DrDeth about the Battle of New York, and it’s not just the aliens, whoever sent the nuke in would have destroyed Manhattan if not for Iron Man.
One more point: I’m surprised nobody (especially Col. Rhodes) pointed out to Steve that he’s Captain America because he wanted to get into the U.S. Army. I don’t think it would have made a difference, but someone should have made that argument.
My understanding is that they would have been free to go as long as they didn’t use their powers. They weren’t breaking any laws just by living normal lives.
The purpose of signing the accords was that it created an exemption to the general ban on using super powers. They would be allowed to use their super powers and help people as long as they did so within the rules set by the accords. Using super powers outside of those rules would be illegal.
Plus, how did he get into the Army in the first place?
“Where are you from, Mr. Rogers? Hmm? Is it New Haven? Or Paramus? Five exams in five different…” “It might not be the right file.” “It’s not the exams I’m interested in, it’s the five tries. But you didn’t answer my question.”
As far as Ross’s show’n’tell session at Avenger’s Tower: I need to see the movie again, but my impression on the New York stuff was less, “You guys blew up the city!” and more “You guys unleashed the Hulk on the city!” Remember, General Ross is a Hulk antagonist, and his primary character motivation is, “Really hates the Hulk.” I kind of imagine that Tony Stark gets up every morning and deletes five emails from Ross bitching about letting the Hulk be an Avenger.
As far as Scarlet Witch’s actions in Lagos, the issue there, I think, is that she did screw up - she was trying to contain the explosion until Crossbones cleared the top of the buildings, but still being inexperienced, couldn’t sustain it. (Alternatively, she could have lifted him up and to the side, to get him clear of the apartment buildings, instead of straight up, which left him adjacent to the civilians.) Either way, while she was trying to do the right thing, her lack of training got innocent people killed, which arguably is on the Avengers as a whole - field ops aren’t the place for someone wearing a trainee hat. (The counter argument is, there isn’t a study program for “Poorly described magic powers,” and the only place she can get real training is in the field. And if they hadn’t brought her, untrained as she was, of course a lot more people would have died.)
Anyway, Ross’s argument needs some holes in it, otherwise there’s no tension between the two sides. If Ross’s argument is ironclad, Cap’s a jerk for ignoring it. By making parts of it weaker, they justify half the Avengers refusing to go along with it.
Hawkeye jokes just kinda need to be made. I wouldn’t assume that every fan who makes fun of Hawkeye actually dislikes him. Hell, even Hawkeye makes Hawkeye jokes “The city is flying, we’re fighting an army of robots, and I have a bow and arrow! None of this makes sense!”
I actually quite like the character and Renner’s performances- all the way back to the first Thor movie, “You better call it Coulson, 'cause I’m starting to root for this guy.” I was disappointed that he was brainwashed for the first half of the first Avengers movie (in the commentary, even Whedon says it was unfortunate but that he needed that character to fill that function).
I thought it was great to see the character so well developed in the second Avengers film. Not just the farm and family thing, that scene I quoted between him and Wanda is one of my favorite scenes in any of the MCU films- when he tells her it’s o.k. for her to stay hidden if she’s not up to the fight, I totally believe that he means it. He’s just laying out the reality for her no judgement but also no pep talk just, “Look, here’s the situation, if you can’t fight then stay safe but we can’t do out thing if we’re worrying about you.”
Renner’s performances have been great. He’s been joking in interviews about how stupid it is for Hawkeye to go up against Vision but the great thing is that he actually played it that way in the movie. He knew his diversion wouldn’t buy much time and he knew the booby trap he set for Vision’s return wouldn’t be dependable for very long. When he comes in to get Wanda, he’s very direct and no nonsense because he knows he absolutely has got to keep things moving.
I think we the audience really understand the character’s principles and motivations and Renner is getting some great laughs with the character.
FWIW, the first comic I ever saw Hawkeye in was the one where he concludes that he’s kind of useless after the Vision’s tremendous powers save the day with an assist from the Black Panther’s handy tech – and so he jettisons his costumed identity to start a new career as Goliath, thanks to his teammate’s Pym particles.
Perfect aim? Cool. Perfect aim when you can throw cars around? Wow.
