Although you can’t spell Greer without all the letters in Guerre, I don’t think he was the main problem.
Or rather vice versa.
A diplomat speaking a common language would only attract praise in the United States.
If it wasn’t a serious proposal, why did they stick it into the negotiations at the last minute?
Because they were not negotiating in good faith. They were using Trumpian/sleazy used car salesman tactics. Which backfired on them, so now they are back-pedaling.
Electricity black-outs are a real worry. (Did it make the News that Gary Indiana was recently without electricity for many days? Unimportant perhaps since Gary is 76% black.)
if I were Canada I’d be worried that their enemy might weaponize the high-voltage wires sucking electric power southward. Shouldn’t Canada run periodic live tests to verify that they can cut off cross-border electric power?
US buys about $3B of Canadian electricity. Wouldn’t $4B or even more be a fairer price given market power? Iran has the Strait of Hormuz to force USA to the negotiation table. Canada has the Champlain-Hudson Power Express.
I said it up thread that the 11th hour injection of these poison pills by Trump was clearly a part of a Highball/Lowball bargaining tactic: make a last-minute extreme demand which anchors the negotiation in favour of a second alternative less extreme demand that follows.
This is like sleaze ball stuff 101. I think Carney was expecting it, so he used the demands as a rallying cry of support for his walk out. His further comments on the lack of trust with Trump, violations of sovereignty, attack on our culture etc. all perfectly spoke right to where Canadians are at.
We’ve all had it with Trump.
Yes. Add to that the artificial deadline. It’s used car salesman tactics. It’s “Oh the deal is only good for today”, followed by “these additional charges we did not discuss earlier? That’s for undercoating”
He gone and done it:
What a douche nozzle.
First I think the Canada/US’s International Joint Commission needs to sign off on any name change?
Second, does Trump want the smoke? We are Canada. We have a MILLION great lakes to burn insulting Trump. We have like five massive lakes on this red line all leading up to the Great Lakes on our southern boarder. I’m just sayin’.
Does he actually believe that anyone will look at this move and say “Sir, that was a great idea.” Didn’t he learn anything from the Gulf of Mexico fiasco? Isn’t he the guy who wanted the rest of the world to stop laughing at us? Now I need a Lake Ontario t-shirt.
This is what we’re dealing with. How do you negotiate international trade agreements when a toddler is scribbling on maps with his crayons?
The name “Ontario” predates any settler/colonial presence in Canada.
"The name Ontario is derived from the Wendat (Huron) word Ontarí’io, which is often translated as “great lake”. In Colonial times, the lake was also called Cataraqui, a French spelling of the Mohawk Katarokwi. The name Ontarí’io is most often translated from Wyandot as “beautiful lake”, and other translations exist. " - from the Wiki page on Lake Ontario - Lake Ontario - Wikipedia .
However, like the attempted renaming of the Gulf of Mexico, it won’t have any effect on anything, but it is a useful signifier that the person who insists on using the name ‘Gulf of America’, or now, ‘Lake America’, deserves a slap in the face and a swift kick between the legs.
No one here would call it that; the attempt is kind of comical. Perhaps Trump can bully social media mapping programs to change the name for all their Americans customers unfamiliar with Great Lakes geography.
Ontario County, including Rochester New York, will officially be renamed Ivankakakaka. Probably.
In retaliation, “American cheese” made in Canada for expiry will now be renamed “Orange Rat-bait Slices”.
IMHO, the best that we can hope for in the next few months is that SOME % of still-loyal Trump supporters … simply can no longer reconcile their financial struggles with his incredible ‘good fortune,’ all the while gilding the nation’s Capital, alienating our staunchest and most reliable allies, and cozying up to malevolent dictators.
And that at least the US House of Representatives ends up in Democrat(ic) control.
Industries and corporations are genuinely NOT building endless factories in the US right now. The “K-shaped economy” is the poster child for George Carlin’s “It’s a big club, and you ain’t in it. You and I are not in the big club.”
As I mentioned to my MAGA brother … I’m a former corporate VP. My counsel to the Board of Directors would have been: we have to wait this guy out, eat any losses in the short term, and then go back to sanity when sanity eventually returns.
My guess? That’s more or less Carney’s position, too.
The near-term costs of placating this madman are steep, but they pale in comparison to the moral hazard of negotiating with this batshit crazy melon-hued toddler-terrorist.
And as it has been said repeatedly; It does not particularly matter what “deal” you sign, as it will be ripped up with no notice for any reason whatsoever in the future. So why bother.
Moderating:
Everyone, please take a moment to review this before returning to your regularly scheduled argument.
This thread, along with many threads in our extremely polarized landscape has threatened to go off the rails, drawing several flags and several mod notes from your truly. The two big issues have been sidetracks/hijacks which I’ve addressed, and patters of borderline insults to both off board figures and other posters.
BUT (again, and please, everyone pay attention) this thread has other issues. We want open and complete discussion of topics, so having Uzi post their POV (when on topic) is useful, and of course you are NOT required to agree with his posts, sources, or conclusions, just like if it was at anyone else. The problem is that we have a pattern over 2-3 of these threads that one of you in your frustration will needle in that one (or half dozen) extra pieces of snark and then Uzi will fly off the handle, escalating things dramatically. Which doesn’t excuse Uzi, but it absolutely makes it worse for everyone trying to have a civil discussion.
This is P&E, and all-too-frequently we’re having a lot of lite-Pit style insults thrown across the board, not just in this thread. It hurts the discourse, and while none of the individual insults generally rise to the level we have to take notice of, they act as an accelerant until one or more posters do burst into flames. Things like TDS/Trump Derangement Syndrome, or accusations that other posters are posting in bad faith should really be taken to the Pit.
Thankfully, with some additional reporting from the American side we’re getting more actual information and less speculation going forward, which should mitigate claims of bias. Future hijacks and personal insults are going to draw serious moderation, be it thread bans, thread splits, or warnings. “XYZ started it first” is NOT a good excuse to escalate an already heated exchange, FLAG it or ignore.
Thank you for your attention.
I would say, though, that any concessions Canada makes to the US will be held against Canada as long as it continues to be in the interests of the US and its government of the day. For geographical examples, look at the North-West Angle, or Point Roberts - while it’s pretty stupid that they are US territory and not Canadian territory, I cannot imagine the circumstances under which they would be turned over to Canada. We gave them away, and we ain’t getting them back.
So, too - if the Canadian negotiators were to have said ‘in the interests of getting a deal, we agree to give the US dairy producers unrestricted access to our markets’, do you really think the US would ever let us claw that back?!?
The dairy issue is a good microcosm for the whole thing. A small country negotiating with a huge country will require some protectionism to keep from getting overrun. The large country doesn’t actually need such protections because it’s too big to be overrun. It’s very hard to communicate to the Americans that Cancon and dairy protections are actually existential rather than merely to our commercial advantage, though of course they are that too. I don’t think there’s an American equivalent of Cancon. For that reason, the American negotiations are really missing a key dimension that is front and central for Canada.
I’m sure the experienced American negotiators understand this fully. I’m equally sure that the American leadership does not understand it at all, and wouldn’t care if they did.
Along with the direct electrical grid, aluminum is another form of electricity exported from Canada to the US. Aluminum production is very power hungry. Canadian aluminum factories tend to use a lot of hydro generated electricity, which is far cleaner than most of the coal fired US factories.
The trade “negotiations” centered around reducing tariffs on certain aluminum types and products containing aluminum instead of a broader agreement on metals. Carney wants a broad agreement, not this whack a mole indivdual deals on specific products.
And I suspect that the “experienced American negotiators” who “understand this fully” probably don’t care either. In this administration, is there anyone who actually respects other countries’ sovereignty?
If I’m going to be honest. This stunt by Trump, issuing an XO to rename Lake Ontario to Lake America is a really big help to Canada. While Carney’s biggest asset is the unification of public support behind him, Trump’s biggest asset is (not his sycophants, but) both Americans’ ignorance and defeatist apathy to his fascistic insanity.
Now Americans can not easily forget the trade war against Canada. That Canada retaliated. That cost of living is high. Trump put these issues in national headlines and slapped on a memorable renaming stunt to it. Every time people see/hear “Lake America/Ontario” they will think… “oh yeah, the trade war”
This is soooooo much more effective then Doug Ford loosing his head, swearing at Trump (or threatening to cut power), and pleading our case on American news.