Short version: in typical casinos, if you flip poker cards over on a folded pot, do you have to show both/all of your “hole” cards to the table, or can you just choose to show one?
Long version:
Playing poker in a home game last night, I won a hand that was folded out to me after I made a large bet. Wanting to have some fun, I flipped one of my cards up to show that I paired an undercard (and not revealing that I had actually made a straight), and tossed the other card into the muck.
The guy on deal (Ben) righteously proclaims “if you show one card you have to show both!” and grabs my other card out of the muck and flips it up for the benefit of the table. Now, this was a “friendly” (i.e., low stakes) game, and we’ve always allowed players to flip one card and not both. I informed Ben that if I wanted to show both cards I would have, and told him in no uncertain terms not to ever do that again. He fell back on the defense that “that’s the way it’s done in casinos.”
Was Ben right? Is this standard casino practice? I realize that you may not show your hand to one player and not the rest, but I’d never heard of this “show one card, show both cards” rule. I know that both cards must be shown when claiming the winning hand, e.g., you cannot show ONLY your ace to prove you have the best pair. I’m asked about a specific case where the hand was folded out to me.
So was Ben full of it? I’m pretty sure he was, in addition to being rude.
Not a huge casino player, but AFAIK standard practice is that if you voluntarily show a card, there is no requirement to show any others. The only time you are expected to show your cards is when one bettor in a showdown is all-in, and honestly, that might just be WSOP rules, it might not apply to regular table games (there was, as I recall, a bit of controversy over this rule, which indicates it probably isn’t standard in table games either). Otherwise, I’ve never seen anything that said you had to show your cards for any reason. Foxwoods lists nothing about either of these activities at its HE page. Interesting question. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will come along.
I should note that Phil Hellmuth mentions doing this (for the reason you probably did) in “Play Poker Like the Pros” and no one expected him to flip the other over. And, in fact, the tournament of champions I saw had him and Annie Duke heads up in the end, and she totally psyched him out by doing just that, making him think he folded wrong.
Everywhere I’ve played, whether in casinos or home games, touching another players cards is absolutely not allowed. Grabbng another players card and flipping it over, even at the conclusion of a hand, would be grounds for fisticuffs.
You are right, and your friend is wrong. He is likely getting confused with the rule that states you have to show both cards to win a showdown (just like you said.) Robert’s Rules v.5 says explicitly: “If only a portion of the hand has been shown, there is no requirement to show any of the unseen cards.” On a related note, if you show a card to any player, than all players have the right to see the card shown.
Yup, that’s what the “show one, show all” means. If you show a card to your friend sitting next to you, you must show that same card to the entire table. In low limit games, however, you hardly see this rule enforced (in my experience, anyhow).
erislover, IMHO, listening to Phil Helmuth will make you go broke in 99% of the games you’re likely to be in.
And you’re speaking as the holder of how many WSOP bracelets?
As to the OP, regardless of what the Robert’s rules may be, the house is free to set its own rules as long as the players are aware and informed of them. If the house (in this case, the host) has a rule that you must show both cards if you show one, then you must show both cards. If the house has no such rule then you are free to show both, one or neither. According to the OP, the house rule is that a player is allowed to show one card and not the other.
What should have happened is that if Ben had an issue with the action, he should have spoken to the host for a clarification of the rules of the house. Pulling the card out of the muck and turning it up was, if not a violation of the rules, a breach of etiquette.
The only possible justification was that Ben was acting as the dealer and so has the responsibility to handle the cards and the pot. He still shouldn’t have exposed the card and if he’d done it to me I’d have called him out on it exactly as the OP did.
No bracelet, but that’s only 'cause I haven’t played the Main Event yet.
Seriously though, his advice could very well help you when you are in the final table of a major tourney or playing in a ring game against pros. However, the average player wouldn’t be fazed by the stunts Helmuth pulls and wouldn’t fold a winning hand when he needed them to. I firmly believe that his creative plays would cause you to dump money in an average low to middle limit game. But again, this is still only an opinion, hence the IMHO prior to my comment.
He has stunts that work in a ring game against pros but fail against average players in low to middle limit games? Do tell, if I catch him at PartyPoker I can clean him out.
Okay, I found something quick before I trot off to bed.
This article from pokerpages is a perfect example. Here’s the relevant excerpt:
Phil is 100% correct. The winner of the pot made a bad call because he didn’t think. The average player isn’t observant enough to fold when he’s supposed to. Incidentally, it’s not a good idea to give your opponent advice at the table. Not only does it make you look like a whiney little bitch, but also the guy may take it to heart and use it against you.
Upon preview, I realize that my reasoning is probably incorrect since I’m thinking of no-limit strategy applied to limit games. Had this hand happened during a limit tourney, the winner may have been correct in calling. I doubt it, though, since he called two bets cold (the check-raise plus Phil’s additional bet).
don’t ask, if you’re “average” enough to be oblivious to any move Helmuth might try on you, I’d be happy to have you at my table.
Limit can be very hard to play, especially if a majority of your experience is in NL. Limit or not, whether this was a bad play or not, other factors need to be considered: size of the pot, position, pot odds, and the nut flush’s hole cards. For instance, if the guy had A-9 suited, then sticking around on a check raise in Limit is ok, risky in NL. If he had A-K, then sticking around through raises aren’t a bad bet either, but, personally, I would raise to show strength. 4-5 off suit in this situation is just plain psychotic.
I hear they give bracelets for other WSOP events too…
Sorry, I live in Phil’s hometown so I sometimes feel this odd urge to stick up for him. He actually was the first star I remember seeing on TV so I sort of formed my impression of poker players from him. I’ve since learned better. A couple months ago, Phil stopped by a local tourney that, unfortunately, I wasn’t playing. I’m told that he was quite charming, taking time to sign autographs and pose for pictures with anyone who wanted one, offering advice and generally having a fun relaxed time.
None of which deters me from my one-man campaign to get him referred to on TV as “Phil Hellmouth.”
Actually I think this is the relevant excerpt:
Having been the recipient of about 30 beats this weekend when I pushed with the best hand only to be called by an inferior hand who sucked out on me (seriously, until last night I hadn’t had a hand hold up since Thursday), I do my damndest to keep the above nugget of wisdom in mind. It can be frustrating as hell to flop a set, bet the pot, have someone on a flush draw raise all in, call and get rivered. I try my best not to comment after beats but with that being somewhere around beat number 23 I couldn’t stop myself from typing “can you teach me how to make stupid plays and get paid? Because I’d really like to learn how to do that.” He kept making the same sort of donkey plays and catching cards and winning big pots and it pissed me off. I feel like I’m playing better poker now than I ever have, that with very rare exceptions I’m making all the right plays, and I’m getting spanked by dimwits who marry their sooooooted cards and catch. I got crippled last night in a live multi by a guy calling all in with K9s and catching the flush, and busted by a guy who called my last 10,000 with 74s (but at least in his case he was getting the right pot odds) and ended up pairing the 4. I seriously wanted to smack the K9s and half the table called him an idiot, but he was the idiot with the big stack and I’m the smart player who went home in 68th place.
Of course, that’s the whole point of poker – to make it random enough that suckers win occasionally (and don’t understand their lack of skill) while rewarding skill enough that in the long run, the sharks get the money.
What other kind of game would a shark want to play? If it’s too much based on skill, the suckers won’t play (how many $10,000 entry fees can bridge or chess tournaments attract? And in real skill sports, like golf, nobody’s willing to put up their own money against Tiger Woods).
Obviously, as a shark, you don’t want to play completely random games either – I mean, the goal is to win the suckers’ money in the long run – so the poker games that last in the real world are the ones that reward luck a lot, but not all the time.
Most statements I’ve seen from old-time experienced poker players who’ve played a lot of variants is that the highest skill games aren’t played much, because the bad players go broke too quickly.
Remember, if someone bad-beats you, it means they’ll probably keep playing badly in the future, and that means (in the long run) profit for you.
Of course, if you don’t change your playing style in response to how your opponents are playing, that is your fault. (i.e. if you’re trying to bluff a calling station, that’s your problem).
I know. I was trying to be funny and give the impression that the other events weren’t worth my time. As usual, my attempts at wittiness fail badly. Anyhow, I’ve been to the WSOP once in '98 and did rather well. I only played satellites for the $1k events, however. I won four out of ten satellites and sold the buy-in chips because I knew that I’d have no chance of doing well in the tourneys. I still regret not entering at least one of the events, though.
Well, I should’ve explained myself instead of just making a snarky little comment, so my apologies about that.
Tell me about it. I don’t play online, but I hear that it’s a lot like playing 3-6 at the Commerce. Expect lots of losses and bad beats with occasional monster pot wins. I find playing in that atmosphere to be damned nerve wracking. Also, losing streaks can last a very long time. A good friend of mine went on an 18 month losing streak and he is a fine player. Otto, I went back and read a few of your posts. I like the fact that you always analyze hands you’ve played. Let’s just say I don’t want you at my table. Keep doing what you’re doing and the losing streak will end.
mazinger_z, good comments.
neuroman, sorry for the extended hijack of your thread.
Oh, no worries mate. I never even met the man and I rip on him as much as anyone, usually.
Hey, thanks, I appreciate your saying that. I’m not too worried about the “streak” though. It’s only been going on since about Wednesday and I already turned it around a little offline last night in a side game (amusing story there, at least I found it amusing, involving of all things a flush draw) finishing 2nd in a STT. This streak has just been really…concentrated.
Oh me too, except not really since I don’t get to talk much about poker with people who know what I’m talking about, except with people I might end up playing against and that’s never a good thing.
Show ONE show ALL means that after the cards are played out, if you show one player seated at the table you must show all the players seated. This is to stop colluding. If its a showdown or an all in, then obviously you are forced to show your entire hand. But in your case, after buying the pot, its deciding on you to show one hole card, both or any at all. If you show your card(s) you must include everyone at the table.
I learned that rule years ago at the Monte Carlo poker room in Vegas.
The rule is enforced because when you show your cards, you are telling others how you played the last hand based on the cards you were dealt. This can help others get a better “read” on you and if you’re going to give one person that advantage, you have to give it to all. It has nothing to do with collusion.
