Oh god! Has Castro lost his way? Will he finally dispose of his mountain fatigues he’s worn for 45 years? Or is Castro just another misunderstood dictator - just looking out for the welfare of ‘his people’ and really not worth around $550 million dollars?
On the other side ---- how does one value a dictator’s wealth? I suppose the idea is if Castro has the power to sell an asset and keep the proceeds, well, it’s his. Whether he has the power to hold those proceeds openly or not. Or is there more to this?
But note ---- if there’s one thing for certain, it’s clear that Castro really - really - doesn’t want to be on this list. Notice the ‘diplomatic language’ used when referring to the story as a “clumsy slander and a repugnant example of the campaign of lies” and the magazine as “an American magazine of decaying credibility.” Seems defensive enough ------ but is it true?
Oh, and Castro also added this –
Does that mean that Castro’s worth matches that of the average Cubian? Seems to be what is implied. That’s about $549, 999, 000 less than reported by Forbes.
He’s probably right about that anyway…if (nearly) everyone is poor then there isn’t much inequality. Also, if he doesn’t include himself or his cronies it looks even better.
They need a snorting coke all over the screen smiley I think. Yeah…Castro is certainly just misunderstood. But he’s a very RICH misunderstood dictator, so that makes it a lot easier on the old boy.
Gods know…did Forbes say how they calculate personal worth?
Oh, I’m sure Castro is pretty uncomfortable having this come out after his various pious mouthings. I wonder if anyone will wander into this thread and try and defend him and say that the figures are all made up…or that Castro somehow deserves the money for his valiant service to the people or some such tripe.
Slight hijack: I attended a lecture by the author Alice Walker last night. She began her talk by pitting dumbass Alabama legislator Gerald Allen’s attempt to ban gay books from college libraries and got thunderous applause. Then she stated that if we don’t want taxpayers money to go to buying controversial literature, then she’d like to not pay any taxes that go to the military— a bit less applause but still a good bit. She bashed Bush a bit more to increasingly less applause (even the anti-Bush factions were “get over it”… we wanna hear about COLOR PURPLE) and commented on Fidel Castro being villified when he’s a great man as she’s been to Cuba several times and it is a progressive state still in formation (applause worthy of Sexual Chocolate by this point).
I know three professors who’ve lived in Cuba, none of whom are particularly conservative and none of whom have ever used a word even remotely resembling “paradise” or even “progressive” in describing it. (I wonder if the half-billion wealth is Fidel alone or all the Castros; Yasser Arafat had a similar private fortune.)
xt:I wonder if anyone will wander into this thread and try and defend him and say that the figures are all made up…or that Castro somehow deserves the money for his valiant service to the people or some such tripe.
How could anybody possibly argue that Castro “deserves” a large personal fortune, no matter how great they think he is? Castro is an official of the Partido Comunista de Cuba, which is explicitly committed to Marxist-Leninist ideologies of social and economic equality. There is no way that a Communist leader could justify the possession of great personal wealth without repudiating his own political principles.
(Mind you, that doesn’t necessarily mean that Castro doesn’t in fact have personal wealth. It just means that there is no logically coherent case that any Castro supporter could make that it’s okay for him to have it, no matter how much they think he “deserves” it. It would be like arguing that an American hard-right “moral values” politician “deserves” to treat himself to sex with gay male prostitutes once in a while because he works so hard for the cause of moral uplift. Er… Oh well, I’m probably better off leaving that sentence alone than trying to fix it. :))
Well, you know, I was wondering the same thing. I can’t think of any, but appologists of all stripes seem to be able to come up with some remarkable things sometimes and I have to admit I was hopeful one of the few Castro supporters on the board (yeah, there are a few based on past threads) would wander in…for entertainment value only.
I wouldn’t be at all surprised if some of them DO partake of things they preach against. Kind of a ‘do as I say, not as I do’ thing. Very similar to Castro’s attitude I’m sure. I’m guessing HE at least thinks he deserves what he gets for his myriad sacrifices to the people. Its tough being the king after all…
Cuba’s 2003 per capita GDP is about $2,900. Not exactly a ‘worker’s paradise’ – Unless, of course, “paradise” is redefined here by someone to mean ‘impoverished spiral hole’ with a dead economy, ideology, and ‘auto industry’ stuck in the 1950s —
If true about Castro’s millions – I suppose the next question becomes – ‘What’s the differences between friend Fidel and organized crime bosses?’ Considering the per capita GDP, I would think that $550 million is a noticeable percent of Cuba’s GDP.
Well, I don’t know if Castro takes up a measurable percentage of Cuba’s GDP (I didn’t see anything about his anual salary), but I’m betting that redistributing that 550 million would give the folks some extra spending cash at least.
I have to wonder this — IF it’s true that Fidel is stuffing his pockets with millions of stolen pesos, is this just filling a vacuum? A result of Castro’s revolutionary dreams for Latin America and Africa drying up, and blowing away just like that Soviet money? No more grand projects for Fidel. Nothing left to make ‘Fidel the Great’ ------ “great.” So, as a substitute, we see Fidel’s money grab. If Castro no longer has the money or the personal charm to be the third world leader, he’ll be rich as Donald Duck’s uncle – stroking his ego like a communist ‘Donald Trump,’ until he passes to that great collective in the sky.
If only his abandoned friend, the lovable Che, were here to see him now. ----
xt: * I’m betting that redistributing that 550 million would give the folks some extra spending cash at least.*
Well, considering that there are over 11 million people in Cuba, the proposed redistribution would give them less than US $50 apiece, or about 1.7% of the per capita GDP. Not negligible, but if I were a Cuban I wouldn’t risk the possible legal penalties for dissent just for the chance of scoring fifty bucks from Fidel.
By the way, is there a debate in this thread, or are we just waiting around for a hypothetical Castro supporter to come in and start one? In the OP Tigers asked whether the estimate of Castro’s wealth was accurate, but I haven’t seen anybody address the question yet.
This is a non-starter. Cuba is a communist country, the government controls/owns EVERYTHING. This methodology would put the leader of any communist(and quite a few socialist) country way up there. Think of it this way. Imagine that tomorrow all the titles of all the companies, their assets, and lands were all gifted to the US Government. Bush, as head of that government, would be considered to have “control”(as the executive properly does) over all those assets. Would it be fair to consider him the richest person in the world? No, all those companies and lands would still be used and their profits distributed to the same people as before, not Bush’s bank account.
Huh. Is there actually any legal distinction between what Castro personally owns and what he controls via his position as head of a Communist state?
If so, is there evidence that Castro is actually diverting money from the latter into the former?
Because if not—if this “wealth estimate” is really just arrived at by assuming that “Castro = Cuba” and therefore “Castro’s wealth = Cuba’s assets”, or some pro-rated amount thereof, as Mtgman suggests—then I’d have to agree, this is kind of meaningless.
By that reasoning, wouldn’t the current leader of the People’s Republic of China come out way high up on the list of rich people? China has a lot more assets than Cuba does, that’s for sure.
One is well advised to keep it mind that a very powerful and influential segment of America’s power elite loathe Fidel with the fury of a thousand suns. Then one should wonder: where did they get their information? Did they access Fidel’s private account in the Cayman Islands? $500 million? Cuba is such a fiscal basket case, he wouldn’t have that much money if he flat owned Cuba! What have you bought lately that came from Cuba?
Yes, Fidel is an autocrat and a dictator. Offhand, I can name at least 10 who are far, far worse, at least half of whom bask in the benign approval of the same people who hate Fidel so much. Besides, what is money but another form of power? Why would Fidel even have money, what’s he going to do with it?
Part of Cuba’s misery derives from its governance, to be sure. But the vast majority of its unhappiness comes direct from us. For no good reason, that I can see, its not like he represents any kind of threat.
All in all, I feel a bit sorry for him. I think he was a sincere revolutionary, but not much of an administrator. No matter who owns what you have to sell, you still have to sell it to somebody. And when the biggest dog on the block hates your guts, you gotta problem. Maybe after he dies, we will finally let bygones be bygones, and quit trying to strangle a revolution that ceased to be a threat a generation ago.
As party leader, he does more or less control those system directly. It may or may not be a good estimate, but it is routine for Communist systems to ascribe a very low salary to their leaders, who mysteriously sem to get much more than that. Certainly that’s the case in China, where high-ranking people may have a low official salary, but get homes, cars, food, entertainement, etc all free.
Cuba trades openly with any country other than the US who desires it. Even in a small country, you can exceed 500 million real quick.
Forbes is quoted in the OP as saying “This year, we have used more traditional valuation methods, comparing state-owned assets Castro is assumed to control with comparable publicly traded companies. . .”
This is ridiculous. Forbes seems to be assuming that since Castro is head of state (and government), and since Cuba has a command economy, with almost all industry being owned by the state (or the “people”, depending on where one’s sympathies lie), that all state-owned assets are therefore somehow the personal property of Fidel Castro.
That’s nonsense. It’s like saying that all the wealth of the Soviet Union at the height of its power was personally owned by Leonid Brezhnev. Forbes obviously is not a magazine that is going to have the least bit of sympathy for the Castro government, and this is just a bit of anti-Castro propaganda.
For what it’s worth (which admittedly may not be much), I’ve been to Cuba. I’ve had pointed out to me Castro’s residence in Havana, which appeared to me to be an apartment in a fairly nice apartment building. He reportedly has a beach place in Varadero, as well. I’ve read accounts (although I don’t have a cite handy) in US publications that seem to confirm this.
Whatever one thinks of Castro, it would be next to impossible to make a case that he was ever, or is now, motivated by financial gain.
This seems pure speculation to me. Granted, I haven’t seen any sources for the OPs cite either to support their position. I’m unsure really if there IS any information available to back up either claim (I did a quick google search but didn’t turn up much that was interesting…but I’m not the best at such searches either), but I find it more plausable that Castro IS wealthy than that he is not. Whether this extends to $550 million or not I’m unsure of, but I’d be willing to wager quite a bit that it extends to something close to that.
As far as your other arguement goes, did Forbes formally consider the head of the old Soviet Union as one of the wealthiest men due to similar reasoning? If not, then I’d say your arguement is flawed and they are using other (albiet currently unknown in this thread) methods for calculating personal wealth than simply being the head of a communist state. For instance, is the current head of China on the list…after all China is still a communist state as well, and they are much more wealthy than Cuba…so the head of the state there should be at the top of the list I would think.
I’m sure this was hyperbole, but not far from the truth. Still, we are talking about anual revenue vs static and accumulated wealth that Castro may have amassed over decades (and perhaps, er, aquired, in his initial take over). I found one cite about purchasing power parity that gives an estimate of $31.59 billion for Cuba. I assume this is an anual figure. So, its not inconceivable that Castro could have amassed $550 million (I assume this is in US dollars) during his time as king, er president for life, er…whatever his offical title is.
Easy answer is…he needs money for the same reason you do. To buy things. We aren’t talking about food here elucidator, but things he wants that have to be imported. That costs money. Certainly if he never wanted or needed anything that wasn’t made in Cuba he wouldn’t need any money…however, there isn’t a lot that IS made in Cuba worth having, ya know?
Well, aside from the ‘feel a bit sorry for him’ bit I’m generally in agreement with you here. Its probably high time the US re-established relations with Cuba…in fact, I think it would be a very positive step to getting rid of their communist government if we did. Similar to whats happening in China.
I was also wondering this. I suppose the debate has turned into…does Castro REALLY have this money or is Forbes methodology for calculating personal wealth flawed when it comes to communist dictators that look like street people? Well, maybe not that last part.
I was thinking about his beach place in Varadero, if such a thing exists. The most spectacular residence in Varadero is the former Dupont place. It’s incredible. And it’s a museum now, open to anyone.
If Castro were really trying to amass wealth and live well, that would be his beach house. But it’s not.
Furthermore, where is Castro going to stick his supposed ill-gotten gains? He’s never going to leave Cuba. He has no (legitimate) children to whom he could bequeath his money (I believe he has one daughter, who lives in Miami. I doubt she’s on the top of his list). Why would he even bother to sock away the loot?
Where DOES Castro live? Do you know? What kind of house is it? Not that I expect he would spend his money on a house mind you…at least not on the parts that can simply be made right there in Cuba. Perhaps he has a stable of cars or horses…or other imported goodies. THAT would require cold hard cash to get.
You do realize that just because the US doesn’t trade with Cuba, nothing really prevents other nations from doing so…right? In fact, Cuba DOES trade with many other nations (go to Canada sometime if you like Cigars for instance). So, same answer I gave 'luci…he would stick his ‘ill-gotten gains’ in the same places you would. He’ll use it for the same reason you do…to buy things. Its kind of a weak arguement anyway to say Castro doesn’t need the money therefor he doesn’t have it…some folks amass fortunes just because they can, or they like too…or for the power it gives them.
You realize that the quote in my post about the methodology used to calculate “personal wealth” was a verbaitm quote from a Forbes spokesman, right? I don’t have the exact formulas or estimates they used, and I’m not all that interested in digging for them, but the thumbnail sketch they provided of their methodology would show the head of communist states(and therefore those who control the state infrastructure(i.e. everything)) as having vast personal wealth.
I didn’t realize it was verbatim, no, but yes, I realized you got it from the article. It DOES seem flawed how they calculated it, but as they were a bit sketchy its hard to say (it was only 3 small paragraphs without a lot of detail after all). Why didn’t the head of China make the list for instance if thats how they calculate these things? Was the head of North Korea on it? From the article cited in the OP:
There must be more too it than what they layed out. I’d like to know how they guess at which state owned companies Castro controls for instance. They aren’t claiming ALL the companies for him or his figure would be a lot higher.
Or, I conceed that perhaps they just have it in for Castro. I don’t know as I was unable to find anything solid on him myself in my earlier 5 min search.
I wouldn’t be at all surprised if some of them DO partake of things they preach against. Kind of a ‘do as I say, not as I do’ thing. Very similar to Castro’s attitude I’m sure. I’m guessing HE at least thinks he deserves what he gets for his myriad sacrifices to the people. Its tough being the king after all…