Er…She had an abortion. A decision that she made. Seems pretty pro-choice to me.
She was pro-choice when SHE got an abortion, but apparently she then changed her mind and decided abortion should be illegal for everybody else. Now you can agree or disagree that it’s hypocritical to do that, but it’s not some kind outrageous position to think that it is.
I dunno man- as someone mentioned before, I do not think of myself as a hypocrite for telling people they shouldn’t smoke, even though I am a former smoker. Hell, I was saying that while I was smoking.
I would believe her to be a hypocrite if she had railed against abortion, then had one, and continued to rail against abortion.
Like I said, it isn’t the being against it, it’s trying to change the rules.
Ok, I can see that. So as an ex-smoker, if I lobbied for legislation to ban cigarettes, then I would be a hypocrite.
Yes. That’s exactly my position. Telling people not to smoke: not hypocritical. Trying to make it illegal: hypocritical.
ETA I’m an ex-smoker, but I never bother to lecture anyone about it. not because I think it’s hypocritical but because I know it’s a complete waste of time.
I will be very supportive and encouraging if someone decides on their own to quit, though.
In that same vein, Ben Folds’ song “Brick” (about his girlfriend having an abortion if you did not know) is said (by Ben) to be true.
In a probably futile attempt to rerail this thread, some people not yet mentioned from the “Well-Known Women Who Have Had Abortions” lists in “The Book of Lists 2” & “The Book of Lists: The 90s Edition”:
Simone De Beauvior
Catherine Deneuve
Nora Ephron
Lee Grant
Lillian Hellman
Viveca Lindfors
Jeanne Moreau
Francois Sagan
Romy Schneider
Susan Sontag
Barbara Tuchman
Sinead O’Connor
Apparently Patti Reagan (Davis) is just a vigorous advocate for a woman’s right to choose. I have seen other folks on other boards ‘assume’ she had had an abortion (or 2) ‘just to piss off’ her parents.
This is not the case (AFAIK).
Dorothy Parker had one and later reputedly said, “It serves me right for putting all my eggs in one bastard…”
As big a Ben Folds fan as I am, I can’t believe I omitted that.
:smack:
I’m the one who said that I found Neal’s actions hypocritical. Here’s why:
She was a young star when she had an abortion. The reason she had an abortion was because it would have destroyed or at least irreparably damaged her career, this being the early 1950s when Ingrid Bergman was being blasted in sermons and in Congress for being pregnant out of wedlock. She said it was extremely painful and that that she bled for weeks afterward.
Neal went on to have a successful career. She also had numerous great personal tragedies, none of them related to her abortion- perhaps she saw them as the wages of sin, who knows? But again the important thing is there’s no causal link between her strokes, her problems with her kids, her husband’s infidelity, etc., and the abortion. Late in life, after her surviving kids are grown and her marriage is broken up and she’s semi-retired, she came back to the USA and began going to pro-life rallies and writing and talking about her regrets over her own abortion and begging other women not to do likewise. I’ve no idea if she specifically said she wanted abortion outlawed- I certainly hope not since she probably wouldn’t have had near as bad an experience with her own if it weren’t illegal- but she definitely preached about it as a very bad and horrible thing, worse evidently than shagging a married man (whose daughter very famously spit on Neal).
The reason I think it’s hypocritical is perhaps best summed up by an Emo Philips joke:
She also- as with so many ProLifers- seems to have a Norman Rockwell/Thomas Kinkade view of the road not taken- birthday parties and Little League and wonderful mother-child bonding moments in a montage had she not had the abortion. Had she NOT had the abortion, perhaps it would have been that way- but probably not. It surely would have derailed her career, she would not have been as successful, her entire life would have been different. In her particular case that may not be a bad thing since her marriage ended badly and she had numerous strokes, but again the abortion’s not responsible for that- the point is that had she not had the abortion she wouldn’t have ended up being the keynote guest of honor speaker at ProLife meetings because she would have just been a “whatever happened to?” actress from the 50s. She likely wouldn’t have been able to provide well for the child, she’d have been a single mother in a time very tough on them with a stigma from her fame hanging over them, unless she gave the kid up for adoption and that’s it’s own mixed bag of regrets and whatever happened tos.
So she’s advising other women not to do what she did. If it ends very badly- an unloved unwanted child, or a woman’s career and health compromised, whatever, was Neal or those like her going to be there to help with the financial and emotional damage? Does she think that women who gave up kids for adoption never have regrets or crying spells on what might have been? Or that all kids who aren’t aborted find loving homes and grow up to be athletes and mathletes? Statistics don’t support that.
And why not preach about birth control, a choice that would have made her abortion unnecessary in the first place? Or “don’t screw around with married men even if their marriage has problems”- that’s a message that bears repeating and is still relevant.
So she had the advantages an abortion brought and now tells other’s not to without thinking of the consequences that bring women to consider abortion in the first place. I find that hypocritical and simplistic. This is my opinion only.
This is getting ridiculous. Dio made his point very clearly - then re-stated it when others reacted with real or feigned confusion - and automatically gets piled onto because he’s Dio.
If his posts were from some other random user, they would have been addressed (not necessarily agreed with) without snark.
The SMDB should be above this third grade mentality.
mmm
I know Keats put this in his trashy biography of Parker, but I never believed it - Parker was a smart women. The quote makes absolutely zero sense.
Keats is the source for most of the otherwise unattributed Parker quotes that float around, but I’m not sure why you say the quote doesn’t make sense. It’s a simple pun on the adage warning against putting all your eggs in one basket. Even if you approach it purely psychologically, it’s a rueful comment about a married woman having an affair and winding up pregnant, knowing she couldn’t keep the child and that the lover would never support her if she did.
Or do you just doubt that she ever had an abortion? Both Leslie Frewin and Marion Meade agree she had one, and Meade states that the father was Charles MacArthur, as Keats’ implies.
Oh I wouldn’t doubt an abortion. It’s just not really that witty a thing to say - women don’t put their eggs into anyone, bastard or not. If you twist and torture the words you can get something out of it, kind of, but it’s not very clever.
One of her eggs went into making the fetus; if you phrase it that way, it does make sense.
The late Jane Russell. I don’t know how much of a pro-life activist she became, but she did turn pro-life & when she had problems adopting later, started an adoption service herself.
Btw, both her & Neal’s abortions I am pretty sure weren’t legal, so they weren’t for changing rules that allowed them to have abortions. They were for going back to the rules that made their abortions illegal.
Ingrid Bergman, already married, fell in love with director Roberto Rossellini & got pregnant. She was indeed denounced on the floor of the Senate. But she joined Rossellini in Italy & he married her–after both of them got divorced. The “scandal” resulted in a son & twin girls came later; the marriage eventually ended. And Hollywood eventually forgave her. But she had Rossellini at her side during the worst of it.
Patricia Neal’s pregnancy would also have affected Gary Cooper’s career; he’s the one who suggested abortion. She always insisted that he was the Love Of Her Life. Perhaps she thought that, if she had had the baby, she could have maintained a hold on him. I can understand her feelings but find her later preaching about morality a bit tiresome.
Too bad she didn’t follow Loretta Young’s plan after her affair with married Clark Gable resulted in pregnancy. She dropped out of sight for a while & gave birth. After a few months, Young announced she was adopting a baby. Guess who?
(Yes, I like celebrity gossip. Just not the new stuff.)
Since this argument about hypocrisy is dragging the thread off topic, it’s time to end it. Start a thread about it in Great Debates if you want to discuss it.