If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck…
Ok. What about Palestine?
I don’t know - what about it?
I think it should exist as a second state, and that if you’re super opposed to that and instead want to see the Palestinians driven into exile, you just might be Islamophobic.
What does that have to do with Seinfeld?
I didn’t say it had to do with him, I was responding to what @Zakalwe said they thought the intent of the students were. When they said that they suspect most of the students that walked out wanted “Israel eliminated as a Jewish state and the Jews forced into diaspora” I guess I was generally asking about what Zakalwe thought Palestine’s fate should be. I suppose I’m still a little confused about some things, but it’s too late for me to formulate any opinions or questions. I am coming at this with, I believe, good faith, (despite any communication problems). I’m really am trying to.be objective.
Just like I don’t want to come off as antisemitic, I don’t want to come off Islamophobic, either. I really just wish we could live in peace.
My dad told me about a protest for Bobby Seal ehe went to in New Haven in 1969 or 1970. The speakers came out and rallied the crowd in favor of Bobby and against the war in Vietnam, until representatives of the SDS came onstage and, out of the blue, started talking about Israel, ranting about Zionists and calling them fascists and pigs.
According to Dad, the next person at the podium was Abbie Hoffman. He stood up, looked around, and said, “Speaking as a Zionist fascist pig, what the fuck did any of that have to do with Bobby Seale?”
Conclusion: Abbie Hoffman was a mensch.
What it sounds like to me is that these college students, for one reason or another think that Jerry Seinfeld is a supporter of the current Israeli government and its actions against Palestine. I see no reason to assume that they want Israel wiped off the map. No protestor I have ever talked to has wanted this. They just want the dying to stop. They protest anyone who they think is complicit with said dying.
Where I can see antisemitism kicking in is if whatever they believe about Seinfeld is an untrue statement promoted by antisemites. I think it’s pretty evident that antisemites are taking advantage of the protests against the Israeli government to sneak in their own stuff. They know that these young people don’t know their history and are angry, and that anger makes you more credulous (as long as you appear to be on the same side).
However, it’s also possible that some misinformation arose more organically, in a game of telephone. And, of course, it’s also possible there’s something that Seinfeld actually did or said that we are unaware of.
I am loathe to jump to conclusions on this situation for what I think is a very important reason. If you are repeatedly called antisemitic when that is not your motivation, then it becomes just an insult. And you become inoculated to it. I find it much harder now to actually point out things that are definitely antisemitic, because I just get tuned out.
These are people who, at the end of the day, want the dying to stop. The antisemites would be those who take advantage of this.
I think they pretested Seinfeld for the exact same reasons the Westboro Baptist Church protested military funerals - to get attention. It’s really no more complex than that.
As for antisemitism - I’m reasonably confident that the rank and file protestors are not that much more anti-Semitic than the general public. Their leaders, organizers and benefactors, though, I’m not that sure about.
I’ve heard some people act as if everything they don’t like is ‘antisemitism’. I think that’s the small minority as a whole, and I also understand how it’s a sensitive discussion at the moment, and people are on edge. It would also be antisemitic to accuse Seinfeld of something that’s not accurate, and based on him being a Jewish person.
So, there’s a lot of nuance to this conversation, obviously. I’m just asking, here; Zionism, what type, if any, is expectable? As far as I know, there are different types of Zionist, and, of course, not all Jewish people are Zionists. Also, I’m sure there’s a wide range of ideas with the Protesters as well. I’m sure there are antisemitic people sprinkled in there. I’m sure there are outside forces trying to stoke antisemitism. I think at the heart of everything, can we JUST stop the killing, and assess things for a while? I don’t think there’s an easy answer, but I don’t think the answer is slaughter.
You know, I really don’t see why this thread should be in CS.
It is too Political for the Cafe, even if it is about Celebrities.
This is true, but does it really matter? If you’re serving an antisemitic agenda out of ignorance rather than malice, is that so much better?
“Expectable”? Sorry, I can’t parse that?
If you are asking what Zionism is, it is the belief that the Jewish people should have self determination.
Sure, like any other ideology, there are many flavors.
And not all Zionists are Jewish.
Sure, if Hamas wants to lay down their arms and release the hostages, we can stop fighting tomorrow.
A ticket is, iirc, $75,000. That’s a lot of money, yes, but it’s in the same neighborhood as a Superbowl ticket or other big sporting event. And unlike sports events, the ticket money goes to a charity (the Costume Institute of the Museum).
The guests wear elaborate and expensive clothes, but celebrities and wealthy people wear expensive clothes to other events like awards shows, and those don’t generate outrage (or do they?).
So why is celebrity stance on Gaza more important than opinions on repressive regimes in Russia, Iran, Belarus, Syria, Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, and the People’s Republic of China? How is blocking their names going to make those onerous celebrities see the error of their ways for not properly supporting Gaza, much less for keeping silent? What about the ones that have their own crusades outside of Israel, like Sean Penn and Bono? Should they be blocked for not making Gaza a priority?
This outrage is only going to last its 15 minutes and then some other atrocity will take its place.
I’m so sorry, I meant to say acceptable.
I believe the outrage mostly came from the theme of the party and the 'let them eat cake" stuff. Without all that, though, I think every year the Gala has people protesting it or of the opinion that it’s excessive.
Well, if someone wants to whitesplain to me that self determination for my people is not “acceptable”, they can fuck right off.
There is no question that there are quite a few people out there to whom the idea of Jewish self determination is “unacceptable”. Those people are called “anti-semites”.
I kind of believe that people should be entitled to their own opinion or lack of opinion without the fear of being punished. It’s getting very scary when simply being silent is a punishable offense. So, for me at least, their personal stance on the situation means nothing.
What counts as “Self Determination”?
Broadly that seems completely reasonable, but it depends on what that means for other groups of people, if anything.
Are you looking for a PoliSci 101 course?
It doesn’t inherently mean anything for other groups of people.
Revanchism, whether of the “Gaza once had a synagogue” or the “River to the Sea” variety, does inherently impact other groups of people.
I don’t know. Perhaps?
I mean, I can’t help what I don’t know or understand, at this point. I thought the remedy to that would be to ask genuine questions. If the questions seem accusatory or anything like that, that’s not my intention, (if you are in fact being snarky). I have a learning disability and I make some communication errors that I may not notice, even after proof reading. I just have a difficult time properly expressing my thoughts. I also sometimes have reading comprehension problems as well.
I try to qualify what I say with an “I think” or “my humble opinion”. I try to highlight that, even if I may have heard or read something, it’s not a declaration of truth, on my part, by saying things like “I’ve heard” or “The accusations seem to be”. If I slipped up and missed a qualifier that indicates I stand firm on either side, at this point, or somewhere in the middle, it’s not meant to be purposeful. I’m trying to be open to new information.
If you’re not being snarky and I’m miss reading things. I apologize. Sometimes I have a real difficult time here, because people use metaphors that are over my head. If you simply can’t be patient with me, I suppose I’ll try to learn elsewhere. I’m also asking you specific questions to hear your specific arguments. I currently have quite a few Wikipedia tabs open at the moment.
It’s totally understandable that you wouldn’t want to inform me on all of this, because it’s not your job to do so, and if you want to end this conversation, I will seek info elsewhere. No problem.