Has anyone here said or implied that all whites are racist? Or even that black people think all white people are racist? Of course not.
**Antinor01 **, do you feel that you are sometimes treated unfairly because of your sexual orientation? And if so, do you feel that there is a certain societal expectation that you will be treated unfairly? Not that you *should * be, mind you. Just that you *will * be. That it’s just kind of… accepted?
*That’s * institutional prejudice, be it racism, religious intolerance, homophobia, or whatever.
I feel tham I sometimes am, yes. Do I feel that it’s expected…no. Do I feel that I’ve come to expect it in certain settings, yes.
Honestly, most of the time when it happens it surprises me. Like when my BF first told me about being turned down for a promotion, I didn’t believe him. The only people I really expect it from are the far right religious types. Other than that, it shocks the hell out of me when people display prejudice/racism/homophobia etc.
Antinor01, I was just coming back to clarify that, despite my unfortunate phrasing, I wasn’t implying that *of course * you’ve felt that way, or that if you haven’t, you’re in denial. But you beat me back here!
FWIW, I’m also always surprised when I’m confronted with any kind of prejudice, even though I shouldn’t be, at this point. Because even though I live in a pretty “liberal” area, and the people I choose to associate with are tolerant sorts, I still often hear “Well, what do you expect?” type statements from people who should know better. The implication being that whether it’s right or wrong, it’s the way it is, and there’s nothing to be done about it. That’s what I consider truly insidious.
But you are wrong, and too many of us have wasted hours upon hours trying to convince people like you to see something you can’t/won’t see. It’s a huge waste of time, because you are so convinced that you are right, that nothing will change your mind. You are a dishonest debater, so it makes no sense to try to counter every talking point you parrot. Whether it’s making straw man arguments, or suggesting that the only thing the Congressional Black Caucus deals with are race issues. Even a quick glance at their website, or any member’s website negates your claims, and the implication that this is somehow bad or wrong.
Tomndebb made a good point that I think needs to be reiterated:
I think it also must be noted that even when lynching were occurring, they weren’t all that common.
I don’t say that to minimize the fact that Blacks were lynched, just to give people some perspective. There have always been some Blacks that found a way to succeed in spite of racism. Hiram Rhodes Revels was elected to the US Senate in 1870, 22 years before the height of lynching. Blanche K. Bruce was elected to a full term in the senate in 1875. The first HBCU, Cheney University in Pennsylvania, was founded in 1837. There have almost always been opportunities for exceptional people, in the right circumstances. The problem is not everyone is Benjamin Banneker or W.E.B. Du Bois, and that not all of them have been in an environment that can lead to success. As long as racism is a problem for the average Black person, I don’t think we can dismiss the problem. The argument you and people like raindog have made has been made every year for over a century. If Revels can be elected to the senate in 1870, why can’t the rest of them shape up and succeed?
Unfortunately, I don’t think there is much symbolic (or practical) difference between the 161 Black people lynched in 1892, and the 126,000 Black people in jail for drug offenses in 2002. Both send a powerful message to anyone in the cross-hairs that you are a target. Just as lynching a relatively small number of Blacks relayed to others that it was not OK to do certain things, many Blacks today have been conditioned by these messages that still exist. Among them, that the cops are the enemy, that the legal system is not accessible to you, that there are no educational opportunities available to you, that the way you act, dress, look, and talk is objectionable to many people, and a clear sign of savageness and idiocy. It didn’t take many lynchings to intimidate black people in the 1800’s, and it doesn’t take many examples or studies citing differences in standardized scoring, housing discrimination, etc. to convey to a poor black person that many doors in life are closed to them. You don’t need to keep kicking someone before they start kicking themselves (not that we’ve stopped kicking).
I not saying Blacks today don’t have in better than people in the past did, but I think it’s important to note that the true hurdles people faced back then still exist today. The dehumanization hasn’t faded very much at all in the last century. Blackness is still a liability. Jack Johnson received death threats for dating white women in the 20’s, just as Jason Taylor does today. It has never been about the act of lynching or racial slurs. People aren’t so affected by name calling, etc. Those are just the vehicles for expressing hate and intolerance, and that’s what bothers people. Just because the drug prohibition, racial profiling, etc. have become the primary vehicles doesn’t mean racism is gone, and the civil rights movement has been won. Try having a rational discussion around here about Ebonics, rap music, Al Sharpton, or OJ Simpson, then tell me the battle is over.
Because it was something totally outside of what I would expect. After he explained a little more I did, but at first it was more of a ‘Oh come on, are you sure it wasn’t something else?’ reaction.
As I said, someone blatantly practicing hiring/promotion discrimination was a foreign concept to me. Especially for it happening within the last 5 years or so. Most people are surprised, as I was, by the fact that you can be fired from most any job in most any part of the US for being gay, and they can say so, and have no legal recourse. There are states that have added us to the list of protected classes but that is still fairly rare.
I’m with you, I tend to associate with people that are not prejudiced against anyone. Example, the group of people I ride to work with and go to dinner with about once a month…there’s about 10 of us and about half are immigrants to the US, 2 more are 2nd generation. We cover the spectrum from british to swiss, asian to polynesian, black to white, 20 to 65, gay to straight etc. Our ‘differences’ just don’t matter to us.
I wonder if perhaps the expectation of discrimination is as much a problem as actual discrimination. Or if the expectation makes it seem that there is more actual than there really is. Something I’ll have to ponder.
If he came home today and said he was fired because he was gay, would he still have to explain a little more, or would you due to changed expectations, instantly believe him?
I wouldn’t automatically ascribe discrimination to anything, without other evidence. It would be easier to see now that I have seen it before but I would still expect other evidence before I charged anyone with discimination.
I just don’t see the world in black and white the way you do. I am not willing to demonize people for something that they have not done or that has been done my a tiny minority. The Congressional Black Caucas is extremely focused on the race issue and I would argue that it’s to the detriment of other issues. You can say I am “wrong” until you are blue in the face and it won’t change a thing. I’ve tried to debate and engage in reasonable discourse but that’s hard to do when people introduce emotion and anecdotes into the debate.
I have made no such argument. If you had been following the discussion or even if you had the good taste to read my comments then you would see that I am a proponent of affirmitive action for black-Americans. I even outlined some of the changes/methodologies I would like to see employed to that end.
Actually I think there is a massive difference. The former were innocent victims whereas the other 126,000 were guilty of a crime or crimes and are being punished accordingly. Of those 126,000 how many were repeat offenders or committed violent crimes as well? I think it is intellectually untenable to compare the two and it does your argument a massive disservice.
Sadly there are arseholes everywhere but the reality is that they are in the vast minority. Sorry, but I won’t demonize an entire peoples based on the acts of a tiny minority.
People debate and disagree over numerous issues. That doesn’t mean there is a battle or even a war. Humans disagree and that’s not a bad thing. You could replace all of the above with George Bush, Tom Delay, Hilary Clinton, George Ryan etc. etc.
Lastly, I do think the victimization mentality will retard growth in the black community. As latinos and asian increase in numbers and in power I simply don’t think they are going to be as sympathetic/tuned in to the issue as white-Americans are. That can, and will, lead to conflict.
How does believing racism exists and pointing it out = a black and white POV? Many people here have said that racism exists; you are the one saying no, it doesn’t, which makes it seem like you are the one with the black and white POV, not the rest of us.
One in three adult black men is in the criminal justice system, and 40% of prison inmates are black. Black comprise only 10% of the population. Is that a tiny minority? Could racism be the cause of that? If not, what is? Please do tell us. If you say socioeconomic status, then I’m going to ask, why are so many black people so damn poor?
They are a legislative grouping who call themselves the Black Caucus. Of course they are focused on race. “To the detriment of other issues” is your opinion, but to say that’s all they do is just wrong.
You have no emotions on the subject? Then you haven’t seen people suffer. It reinforces my opinion that you are disengaged from the real world effects of racism and therefore are talking out of ignorance. Also, when you insult people during the course of an “emotion-free” debate, then give them shit for having a reaction, that’s bad debating.
Do you not realize that the people who committed lynchings thought they were punishing crimes? The most common cause of lynchings were that the black man had allegedly committed murder, assault, or rape of a white person. However, this is beside the point, since a lot of the drug convictions today are based on racist discrepancies in the law, which have already been pointed out to you numerous times and which you have failed to address.
Here’s something else you don’t seem to be getting-- we’re not talking about individuals being assholes (though you might be surprised how quickly and easily some people will toss around the word “nigger” when they think no one is around who’ll do anything about it). We’re talking about institutionalized racism in law enforcement, schools, testing and educational materials, job hiring practices, etc. This kind of racism is often invisible to white people because it doesn’t effect them and they can’t see it from their limited POV’s… kinda like you.
Huh? Latinos and Asians aren’t as sympathetic to racism as white people? How freakin’ absurd that is. Laughable, even.
People who are hurt by racism who point it out do not have a “victim mentality.” There is a difference. I wish you could try to understand that.
I’ve said nothing of the sort. I’ve always maintained that racsim does exist I just question the totality of its affects and whether it is still the single greatest impediment for black advancement and whether it is the single greatest cause of problems in the black community. Please do try and actually read my posts.
Again, please make an effort to read my posts. Your ignorance is starting to get off-putting. I noted the difference with regards to crack cocaine but hey, go ahead and ignore my posts.
I’ll ask again, how many of those 120,000 are repeat offenders or committed other crimes?
Thing is, I’m asking you to prove it and all you are doing is making gradiose and near hysterical statements about people’s point of view. We have laws that try and prevent discrimination in hiring, we have school districts run entirely by blacks etc. I see poverty and the destruction of a stable living environment as being a significant contributor to low test scores and other maladies. I see the eroding of the industrial belt as squeezing poor blacks. I see many other problems that are not exclusive or limited to racism. Racism is an easy sop to what are complex problems.
I didn’t say that. My point was that you have other developing ethnic groups who will simply balk at the notion that they owe anything to black-America. The notion of victimhood simply won’t resonate with these groups to the same extent.
When it is used and sole cause of all their ills, regardless of whether or not they were self-inflicted, then I do have a problem with it.
And how do you judge whether or not they believe it’s the sole cause of their ills? If say, I was stopped by security at my high profile job in front of potential clients, caused them (the clients) to treat me differently as I appeared weak and my bosses gave my one real shot to another guy and my career goes downhill from there…let’s assume that it’s all true.
What do I have to do in order not to be a victim? If I get a job that’s beneath me, because I need the work, but still resent the racist guard and find that I distrust all whites with the power to screw with me, like the $8.50 security guard that fucked me up, am I being a victim? I still work, I still pay my taxes…victim?
If I pack up my bags and more to another country, where I become successful, but still blame the “man” and refuse to return to the states, am I being a victim? I have a great job, I pay my taxes, I just don’t believe in allowing people who in the past have screwed me over, the opportunity to do some again…victim?
Or do I have to be a happy, go lucky, roll with the punches, dust my self off and get back on that big white horse, sticks and stones kinda guy, in order not to be a victim in your mind?
Or do I have to be a wino, junkie, welfare cheat to be a victim?
If I call a spade a spade and go about my business am I still a victim?
Yes you are. You are trying to be a victim if you acknowlege that racism has been a problem in the past, so you know that makes you one if you say its still present. Much kudos to the raindog for making that clear for me.
Considering that your hypothetical description doesn’t show that the security guard was racist at all, yes you are playing the victim in that scenario.
It’s complicated, since the historical effects of slavery and racism, past and present, have destabilized black families and communities, and that legacy lives on and is, in fact, getting worse in some places compared to advances made in the decades immediately following the Civil Rights Act being passed. I’d say poverty is the greatest problem the black community, but racism of many kinds is a big contributing factor to poverty.
I am reading your posts, man. I just don’t agree. Don’t try to play it like I’m the one with the reading comprehension problem, since you keep putting words in my mouth.
I’m ignorant? You admit that crack cocaine sentencing differential exists, but you refuse to attribute it to racism at all. Why, then, does it exist? What about the prison population issue?
Why don’t you tell me, since you have offered zero cites for your learned opinion?
YOU said everyone else is seeing in black and white but you. YOU have offered nothing but your own opinion, no cites, no back up but name-calling and barely veiled accusations of reverse racism. I don’t think I’m being hysterical at all. I am getting tired of talking to you, though, since you have no idea what you’re talking about.
Segregation of school districts has been on the rise. School district funding is determined by property taxes for the area, so funding is directly connected to the income of the community. What do you have to say about that? Read [for a lot more detail on segregated school districts and the negative effects on education for the kids in that district.](Harvard University’s Civil Rights Project[/url) Some highlights from Harvard’s Civil Rights Project, b/c it’s 47 pages in .pdf:
–A disproportionate # of schools being labeled “failures” by No Child Left Behind are segregated minority schools.
–Achievement scores are strongly linked to school racial composition and so is the presence of highly qualified and experienced teachers. (A 2004 U.S. Department of Education report showed that in schools where at least 75% of the students were low-income, there were three times as many uncertified or out-of-field teachers in both English and science…)
–The nation’s shockingly high dropout problem is squarely concentrated in heavily minority, low-income high schools in big cities.
–Schools can’t do everything, though. A comprehensive federal study of children across the country entering kindergarten shows very large differences in the acquisition of skills invaluable for school success long *before the children ever enter a schoolhouse * (emphasis mine). Poor, undereducated parents (results of a segregated and deficient school system) who have to spend a lot of their time working cannot spend as much time with their kids, preparing them for school.
Is Harvard making this up? They conclude, as if directly addressing you:
Perpetuating the victim mentality? Or just reporting on the continued existence and negative effects of institutional racism in our public schools? How can you expect people to shake it off and move on when they are not getting the same educational opportunities that white people are getting? Starting off with this disadvantage has a cascade effect on the rest of their lives.
They are complex, and denying the part of racism in them is wrong. Pointing these things out is not enough, though. Money, education, open-mindedness are also necessary. Denying that it’s a problem does not help, because that is removing responsibility from the outside factors and blaming it all on the people who are suffering.
Cite?
Show me where anyone said it was the sole cause of anything. I do think it is the root, however, with many issues spinning off it. I’d like you to offer some cites for your opinion, if you have any. Otherwise, YOU are the one who is being irrational and hysterical, not me.
And what in your mind, would show the guard was racist? You don’t expect him to scream bad words at “me” do you?
Perhaps the guard allowed all manner of white people, regardless of their dress and demeaner to walk into the building unmolested. Yet when he sees me, in my Brooks Brother suit with all the trappings, stops me. I show him, my id and he calls up my office and asks if I’m allowed up…anyway. All within the clear view of the clients, who he had already allowed to pass, unmolested.
Racist enough? Even though the agency acknowledges he was over the top, I find, as I stated earlier, doors slowly being closed…to me. My star is no longer rising.
Am I victim, if I believe in my heart that the one act, has fucked me up. Sure I survive, sure I get another job…but am I victim if I realize the wrong that was done to me and the direction my life is now taking and decide never again?
Okay then, Rubystreak, let’s take this meaty latest post and go into the issues a bit deeper.
Can you please expand on this? What I know about the urban poor Black American population is that the father involvement is statistically “fragile.” As a group Black females are not the youngest mothers out there (Hispanics tend to have children earlier as a group) but they are much less likely to be married when having children than other cultural populations (in contrast the Hispanic population is more often married and stay married). Dads are often initially involved but, not living in the household, are often rapidly dealt out of kids lives. This is a cultural reality and certainly contributes to a destabilized family. The numbers of young Black males in the prison system certainly does not help. And the lack of strong and present father figures is a clear risk factor for future underachievement of various sorts, including continued poverty and involvement in crime.
Now I can certainly believe that much of this situation is the end result of years of racism and of the poverty that resulted out of racism, but is it productive to blame its continuation on racism? Is that where the effort should go, towards blaming White power structures? Or is it more useful to address the factors within the community that perpetuate the cycle?
As far as crack goes … I’m no expert here, but I’d wonder if there is a distinction between something that occurs as a result of a lack of political power versus something that occurs as a direct result of racism. Crack, and therefore Blacks, may be hit on not directly because of racism but because other groups are coming out to vote more. A politician who wants to show they are tough on drugs is not going to make an example of Hollywood heavies who fund them, they are going to send up populations that do not give to their campaigns and who do not vote as much anyway. It may be that it is very dispicible but not racist.
The achievement gap, the drop-out rate, the segregation of schools, all are a result of urban poverty and the fact that race can be used as a crude proxy for SES in this country, at least in many urban settings. The middle class Black kids I have known do just fine (well they run into some troubles at the HS level because in our community they then then mix with a lower SES Black population and are struggling with where they fit in, with the other middle class kids, who are White, or with the lower SES kids who are Black) My kids should do so well. And yes, I can buy that poverty is partly, or even largely, the result of historic racism, but again, where does that get us?
Agreed. Society needs to work together to solve these issues. But remember that just as you hear some Whites trying to remove responsibilty from outside factors, some Whites may hear you as if you are trying to remove responsibility from intra-community and intra-cultural factors. Neither may be what the other is actually trying to say. Both must play roles in fixing things and arguing over which is larger is immaterial to doing what needs to be done, detracts from what needs to be done. Education, funding it and encouraging it. Getting out the vote of all who consider fair opportunties for all to be a high priority. Removing the barriers to keeping fathers involved. Encouraging stable families which generally does mean marriage before children. Encouraging successful Black intellectuals to mentor the up and coming. Vigilance in the fight to reduce racial profiling. Honest recognition by many Whites that they may unwittingly participate in racist practices and open acknowledgement that institutional barriers still exist. Acknowledgement that it is harder to become an intellectual giant when you are growing up in urban poverty and going to a crappy school with out of date text books and class sizes of 40 plus. Recognition that someone who has achieved a level of success in that environment is truely someone who would excel if given more of a chance. And so on.
Well, is it productive to deny the role of historical racism? Yes, individuals need to take responsibility for their own actions. Yes, fathers needs to step up to the plate and women need to stop having babies by deadbeats. But when you look at the total picture and explain to outsiders why certain disparities exist, you would be remiss to not talk about history and its racist legacy.
This is not about being productive so much as being accurate.
It’s not clear what you mean when you say “blaming White power structures”. That’s not the same thing as acknowledging institutional racism or even historical racism. But assuming that you mean racism in general, recognizing the impact of racism and addressing behaviors within the community are not mutually exclusive things.
How about you go a bit deeper? I think I expanded plenty and spent more time in this thread than I should have, considering.
I think **you with the face ** already said it-- is it more productive to deny the existence of racism? When people are oppressed by society, acknowledging their struggle seems more productive than saying it’s all their fault. White power structures ARE part of the problem. White people in power at least need to be aware of how the status quo perpetuates the negatives in black culture. If, as Lochdale claims, most people do not want to perpetuate racism, then awareness is the first step. Saying racism is over and black people have no excuse is not productive either.
Why do black lack power? Lack of education, lack of money… why? In part due to the legacy of racism. Leveling the playing field is necessary in these areas before blacks will have power proportionate to their population.
The very fact that race can be used as a proxy for these other harmful factors points to something, doesn’t it?
Don’t you think that, if society at large admitted that there are institutions, big and powerful ones, that were and are racist, that would be a big step towards changing things? People like Lochdale won’t even admit that racism is still a big problem for the American educational and correctional systems, and in fact segregation and its attendant problems have worsened in recent decades. With attitudes like that, things will only get worse.
When people don’t even START with the same educational opportunities from birth, you have to admit it’s hard to then tell them they need to just get with the program. A single mom with 4 kids who had to work the night shift may realize she needs to read to her kids, but can she? Can she pay to open enroll her kids in a better school district or put them in private school? Then how is she supposed to change things, esp. when she’s not terribly well educated herself? She can’t go to board meetings, can’t be involved in PTA, and thus the cycle goes on.
People need help from the institutions that are now not helping. Awareness of the problem is the reason why I’m still pointing out racism. Pointing it out is not the end of the story, but if people say it’s not a problem, how can it be addressed? It’s not a matter of blaming anyone. That’s the thing you guys keep missing.
