Your first scenario simply stated you were stopped by a security guard. That was it. Being stopped does not demonstrate racism or discrimination. The place I would say a line was probably crossed was in calling to verify the ID, if by that you meant a company issued ID. If it were something like a drivers license and he didn’t know you, I could see checking on it. Maybe he knew those other people, maybe he is racist. Like I said before, I don’t believe in charging that someone is racist or discriminatory without other evidence. Your first scenario had none. The 2nd is more plausible to claim rasicm.
Which is why my first scenario was vauge. It doesn’t matter. My question wasn’t is this racist; my question was…if I believe this was racist, yet continue on with my life; am I victim?
My point and perhaps I’m not being clear and what I’m trying to understand is what makes “me” a victim. It seems to me, that whether or not I can prove my belief in racism is unimportant, to my status as victim, but what in what place I ulitmately end up.
What matters is that I continue to strive to be the best I can be. Even if I believe the white man is out to get me. Even if I blame every slight I receive is because I’m not white, as long I as pay my bills, go work and become a productive member of society. I’m not a victim.
Yes?
Let’s look at like this. When I was kid, we have certain members on the block that were proud to call themselve Irish-Americans. Those members made no excuses that they blamed the British for all of the troubles in Ireland and cite them as the reason their families had to leave Ireland several generations earlier. They all had good jobs, they were better off than their families that still lived in Ireland. Yet they would at the drop of a hat, blame the British for any and everything and had no problems donating at the local bar to “support the cause”.
Are they victims?
That’s a bit clearer. If you go on with your life and be productive, that’s great and should be the case. However, if you blame every slight on racism, with no evidence whatsoever, you are playing the role of victim because you’re looking for racism to blame your problems on. At that point, you’re perpetuating the concept of racism and as in your example of the irish americans, telling other people that they are victims of racism which keeps people thinking that it is there…even if it isn’t.
Ruby, that chip on your shoulder must make it hard to walk.
I have stated very clearly that I believe that racism exists and is a significant problem at various levels. I have stated very clearly that I believe that society as a whole has a responsibility to address the problem. Yet your response to me is as if I am saying that it is not a problem.
I will try to say this very clearly. The goal is to reduce poverty, to reduce discrimination, to reduce all the factors, yes all the factors that perpetuate the cycle of unstable family structures, inadequate education, and lack of equal opportunities. Recognizing the role that institutional structures have played and continue to play in creating/perpetuating these situations is important, whether those structural impediments are motivated explicitly by racial prejudices or whether they are the unintended consequence of other goals. I care about the effect not the motivation, honestly.
I will state very clearly that popular support among other American groups for addressing those issues will be sparse if the debate is phrased as a duty for the White power structures to admit they are racist. Few who engage in actions that have racist effects believe they are racist and they may not be racist even if they participate in a system with racist effects. Few will feel like supporting the cause if it is presented as society’s job to fix it alone and the Black community absolves itself of any responsibility for the continuation of the current situation. Sorry, but it is not up to White systems to encourage marriage before having children and stable family structures in the Black community. White power structures won’t get out the Black vote on election day. Some of the fix has to come from within too. When Black leadership refuses to accept that the Black community has any responsibility for the current situation or for making it better, then they do come off as whiners, and few want to rush to support someone whining. You want real results then you need both sides to be able to speak frankly and to honestly look at their own warts. I hear you pointing out the warts of the asses of the White power structures, but refusing to look at the warts on any Black bottoms. That approach will go no where fast. It may make you feel good to say to yourself that all these White folk are clueless, but it accomplishes nothing else.
And as far as Chappelle being a twit, boy, that was an attempt at humor y’know. Chappelle is really of no consequence to the subjects now being discussed.
Holmes I’ll be equally blunt to you. You sound like the Cubs a few years back when they made a real run for it and were doing great … until a fan reached down and blocked a ball. Bad break that fan’s reach. But that wasn’t what lost the series, what lost the series was their getting freaked by that one bad break, losing their focus, and decompensating. They did not deserve to win, if they couldn’t recover from an unfair break. Let us assume that the guard IS a racist prick … I hardly think any client would even have noticed much that it was you who got seached. To them security is a random annoyance. They probably would have been clueless that there was even a possible racial motivation to it. If you lost stature to them and to your co-workers it was because of how you reacted to it. Your star is no longer rising not because you are a victim but because you you whined about being a victim concerned about personal gain instead of continuing to shine in value to the company good. There were ways to deal with this that did not involve whining about it. You could have, perhaps, later approached the guard and asked him if he realized that he only searched you and that such gives the appearance of racial profiling. Calmly, without accusing him of actually being a racist. Informing him that such an appearence puts a poor face on the company, and to please be aware of that in the future. It does more good to assume that he is not consciously racist than to assume he is. Remember, many racist acts are not done with conscious thought, they are done because of unconscious conditioning. Give him a chance to learn, if not new beleifs, new behaviors. If you did that you would be no one’s victim. You would be part of the solution.
How would they not notice? You have dozens of people walking unmolested past this security guard, you have clients who themselves are used to be nodded into their own offices, are nodded into one they don’t work at, yet the one person who they know does work there is stopped. Asked for his company I.D., then is subjected to verbal verification. You don’t think they would notice that? Again, forget the racial component of it, it’s a matter of appearances.
How did I react to it? I don’t believe I mentioned in any of my posts how I reacted to it, sufficed to say I noticed I was being treated differently after the office buzz started going. The client’s were made to feel uncomfortable. It bothered them, to stand their at the elevator waitching the go-to guy, get “pulled over” for DWB. To them it was a sign of weakness.
I must ask, why are you assuming I said anything at all? In fact in my scenario, I tried to be as vauge as possible. Yet here you are accusing “me” of “whining”, because i mentioned an event that I feel may have caused a person some harm, yet he, as I have stated several times now, continued on with his life.
In order not to be a whiner means that people should take whatever shit is tossed on them silently? Life’s not fair, and if you demand respect and to be treated fairly, you’re a whiner? Is that it? Does the guy have to scream <insert slur here> in order to prove he’s crossed the line?
So then, lets say I do and the guard says, “I have the right to screen whomever I want and I don’t like the want you look.” Is it okay to contact the agency or does that make me a whiner? I didn’t ask for compensation. I didn’t call the guy a racist, i didn’t ask to have to guy fired 'cause were I come from, you mess with a man’s ability to feed his family. However I noticed ever since that event, I’m being treated differently and that makes be a whiner? I don’t like the environment and leave; victim?
Again, what in my little scenario caused you to think I whined to anyone about it? I seriously want to know, because I don’t see it…unless as has been noted several times in this thread, the mere acknowledgement of unfair treatment is tantamount to being a victim, playing the race card or being a whiner.
Why, why do I have to educate him? Why can’t I go about my business, pay my taxes and assume he’s a racist prick?
So them if I blame every slight on people being rude, insensitive idiots, with no evidence whatsoever except my feeling, because I believe that most people are rude, insensitive and idiots…am I playing the role of victim?
In thinking about this line of discussion, it seems to me that we’re using the term victim when something else would apply. You are talking about projecting your feelings on other people and ascribing motive to them without any evidence.
Last year my company had one of those stupid corporate team builder things. I did get something good from it though. One of the concepts they used was called ‘making stuff up’, which is basically what you’re talking about. Making stuff up is when you ascribe motive to someone or make assumptions about a situation without the facts. While that very likely doesn’t rise to the level of ‘playing the victim’, it is certainly making stuff up. You do a great disservice to yourself and the people around you when you do that.
I wouldn’t presume to tell you not to randomly assign motive to people, but I would encourage you to look at what’s really going on instead.
Which is why I trying to pin down this term “victim”. One of my gripes with these types of discussions is how easily terms like victim, whiner, race card gets tossed out, when if you removed the ethnic component, the term suddenly becomes something else.
In my crude way, that’s what I was trying to show.
We’re on the same page here for the most part…but it really bugs the crap out of me, when negative terms are instantly tossed out, just because the issue addressed deals with how different groups of people interact with one another.
Victim is often in the eye of the beholder. Which is why it’s hard to clarify at times.
In my view, someone is acting like a victim if they spend their time running around saying “I can’t get a job because I’m gay” “I can’t buy that house I want because I’m black” etc etc and actually believing it. It’s when you start blaming every problem on that one issue and refuse to accept any other possibility. When we see the world as out to get you because of that one factor, you’re hurting yourself and those around you.
Huh? Why would I have a chip on my shoulder? Because I think racism is a problem? Because I don’t agree with you? I have more than backed up my opinion, so the name calling is getting a little tired.
I specifically pointed to Lochdale as someone who was saying it wasn’t a problem, not you. It is a bit annoying, after I offered tons of cites, to be asked to delve deeper when you have offered none.
On this, we agree.
The motivation has a way of showing itself, though, and is itself a problem. What’s worse is people denying the reasons why things are the way they are, denigrating people who point it out, and calling names.
Yeah, let’s tiptoe around the sensitive white people who don’t want to hear that they’re racist. That’s what it sounds like you’re saying. Say it nice, black folks, or the white people who hold the reins won’t help you! I find that attitude a bit patronizing, frankly.
Maybe it’s a matter of diplomatic phrasing, but I don’t think so. I think it goes a lot deeper than that. These problems have been stated by lots of people in all manner of ways, and they remain a problem. People like me are chastised for even bringing them up. Black people are called whiners who can’t take responsibility when they bring it up. Do you think being extra super nice about it will make the difference for people of color? Really?
Sigh. Where did I absolve anyone of anything? It’s a complicated problem, but the people with the power usually have to be willing to acknowledge the existence of the problem and participate in the solution before it can be changed. Maybe being less “whiny” would work, but I have to question your definition of whining. It sorta seems like anyone who says racism is the root of the problem = whiner to you, and I think that’s unfair.
Sure it does, but by the time people are having children and able to vote, the damage has often already been done… see my cites about segregated schools. Changing society has to start from the bottom. If the playing field was leveled, then people can start to change their lives, and responsibility can make the shift over. When the majority of people of color in low SES groups start out with a deficit imposed from outside (Harvard’s study backs me up on this), how can you boil it down to whining and playing the blame game?
This is a matter of your opinion. I have not and will not agree that black leadership is whining and taking no responsibility. The mere fact that they won’t take all of it doesn’t mean they’re whining. There are black leaders who are harming their cause, but I would hardly tar them all with that brush.
I am doing my share to change it, don’t worry. Realizing it still existed was my first task, though, and I think it’s the same for other white people and societal organizations. It’s hard for me to blame children for low test scores, higher dropout rates, etc. That’s a problem with the system, the parents (who are products of the fucked up system), and people who are in denial.
Yeah, how’d that happen?
I’m sorry, that’s incorrect.
Many of the topics here are reminding me of various sketches from the show, and I can sort of see where Dave might be coming from. The quote above is from, of course, the game-show parody “I Know Black People.”
Host: How can black people rise up and overcome?
Professor of black studies: That’s a complicated question. DING
Host: That is correct.
White DJ: CAN they overcome? DING
Host: That’s acceptable.
Black guy: Stop cuttin’ each other’s throats. DING
Host: That is correct.
White female parole officer: Get out and vote? BZZZT
Host: I’m sorry, that’s incorrect.
Yeah, haha, voting is futile. I know that the irony is what makes it funny, (and I thought that sketch was hysterical), but when people start taking the ironic message seriously, you can start to see a problem with the material itself.
Then when they do vote and their leaders put forth an agenda that addresses race, they’re whiny and undermining their own cause. Can’t win for losing.
Holmes, Oh I don’t know. I think when you said that “the agency acknowledges he was over the top” I sort of presumed that that was in response to your complaining about it. I could’ve been wrong. Still, I am sorry, but if seeing you stopped unjustly by a security guard was enough to make you lose face with your clients then you really could not have had much a strong relationship with them in thefirst place. When you allow one setback to get your career off track you are indeed being a victim. When you accept a situation and do not take actions that can reasonably make a difference for those who come after you, you are being a victim.
Ruby, the “chip” comment is no name calling. It is a mere observation that a reasonable comment going into issues a little deeper, praising your last post (“let’s take this meaty latest post and go into the issues a bit deeper” … that means let us, not that you were not doing it) was met with apparent hostility, as if I was attacking you.
I find some of what you say now to have some racist character to it, honestly. There is an implicit presumption that the Black community isn’t capable of addressing these problems. Instead you propose railing for everyone to have a level playing field (unachievable) and that the damage is done. I think that you give people too little credit. Obstacles still exist and they are substantial but we can build on the progress that has already been made if we honestly approach it from all angles.
Perhaps I can make my case for how to make the case a little bit more clear with a personal vingette. I do not believe that I am racist, yet I can recognize how some of my actions are part of institutional racism. How so? I am a pediatrician. Where do I practice? A middle class community that is much more White than it is Black. Did I choose to practice there because I hate Black folk? Of course not. I chose a suburban (well semi-urban) lifestyle and a suburban practice. But when few of the docs who have a choice, choose to provide care in the inner city, the net effect is racist. We historically have limitted the percentage of our practice that is Public Aid, which may correlate with race to some degree. Do we do this because we hate poor people or Blacks? No. The state generally pays poorly and slowly and we don’t want to do too much more than our fair share. But the effect of all of us doing that is unequal access to healthcare. These are real problems which result in racist institutional practices which I have been complicit in. Calling me a racist doesn’t solve the problem. Our working to get better funding for children’s healthcare and for expanded coverage of the otherwise uninsured, and opening the practice to a greater percentage of PA and to more free care for the truely poor helps some. But it does not change the fact that my actions have had racist effects. I am part of a medical system that provides healthcare inequitably. Call me a racist and dems fightin words; convince me that I have been part of a process causing racist effects and I try to solve it.
Addressing race is fair game. Understanding how institutional structures foster racist effects is fair game. Calling people racist should be done very sparingly. And addressing race exclusively as a function of problems due to racist structures without addressing the need for community actions comes off as excuse making. It is an incomplete analysis made to avoid insulting sensitivities which itself is implicitly racist. That is tiptoeing.
Well as you know this is a scenario and I’m filling in the blanks as questions pop up. The ‘complaint’ as you call it, could have been in response to as you suggested my speaking to the guard and receiving the impression that his behaviour will continue. Would I be wrong, to contact the agency directly?
Do you read what you write? If I complain to the agency, the place which has the power to correct the guard, I’m a whiner. If decide to leave an environment that I feel has now become detrimental to my advancement, I’m not standing up for my people and am a victim.
Nice.
“Chip on your shoulder” to me means that someone can’t let go of something that happened in the past. I don’t think racism is in the past. Also, I didn’t realize you were praising me. I thought you were implying that I had to go deeper, as if I wasn’t deep enough. Sorry if I was being defensive.
See, now there you go again. Now I’m racist. Cute. It’s racist to think that racism is a problem and needs to be addressed? What? Give me a break Really. Don’t try to turn this around on me. No, I don’t think that the black community is capable of FIXING these problems on their own. Systemic poverty and segregated schools won’t just go away without a concerted effort on a society-wide scale. Especially when people in power refuse to acknowledge that there is a problem. It’s a cooperative effort. I don’t think that’s racist of me to say, sorry.
Sorry, I cannot accept this. Dr. King is spinning in his grave. A level playing field is not too much to ask for or want for every kid. I think poverty is harder to solve than race, admittedly; eliminating race as a predictor of academic performance would be a goal worth pursuing. Gains have been made; it’s not hopeless. But I’m the one who is not giving people enough credit, eh? I’m not just going to say, “Unachievable!” and excuse the continuing inequities.
All angles. Telling black people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, get over it already, the problem is solved, all your leaders are whining? Is that an honest approach from all angles? Yes, when people reach adulthood, the damage IS already done. Not impossible to overcome, like any other kind of damage done in childhood, but the effects are undeniable and lasting. Harm done to children is not insurmountable, but until it stops happening, there will continue to be negative effects (this is true of all other kinds of neglect/abuse suffered by children, obviously). The problem has to be addressed at the beginning for the effects to be alleviated permanently. If they’re not, the gains of the Civil Rights movement will continue to be eroded.
Vignette? Probably not.
So do something about it. right?
If it were as simple as being about HATING people, it’d be much closer to over by now. It’s not. Why this reductivist argument all over this thread? No one accused you or anyone else in this thread of hate. Neglect, ignorance, complacency, denial, maybe in various places in this thread, but not conscious wrongdoing. Again, would that it were that easy.
Neither does calling me one, but you did it anyway. Huh.
Yeah, I got it. So are you trying to solve it as best you can, or what?
I calls 'em like I sees 'em, and I don’t think I ever called you one. You did call me one, though, which is ironic as all hell.
My god. Did I ever say exclusively? Where, pray tell. Please show me where. This is why I’m not sure why I’m still bothering here. People keep hearing what they want to hear, including me (misinterpeting compliments, for instance).
Eh, there is a difference between saying that you are saying some things that have racist assumptions implicit and calling you a racist. Just like there is a difference between someone calling me (not you, never said you calling me) a racist, and pointing out that things I do have racist effects. The difference is more than academic. Still, it does seem like I worded that poorly and I apologize.
A more level playing field is doable. A level one is unachievable. Some will always have more than others and will attempt to provide for their own. I will use my resources to get my kids the best education they can have. I’ll pay to live in the better school district if I can, and I can. I’ll hire the tutors if needed. Will you change society such that I cannot?
Now is that at all a fair portrayal of anything I’ve said. It is not even a fair recapitulation of what lochdale said.
I tried to explain the ways that I am. They are perhaps small ways. I am not going to relocate to the inner city. But I will be part of efforts to provide more universal healthcare coverage that eliminates some of the disincentive to avoid serving urban poor populations. As a practice we have increased our share of providing for the underserved. But system solutions go beyond individuals.
Sorry I had skipped yours. Like I said, I made some presumptions based on what you wrote, which could have been wrong. If you are making up a story as you go and not going to tell us something that really happened then to Hell with it.
Eh, to play your what if game … then the question is how did you, in this version of events, present it to the agency? And the attitutde that this one bad break is what lost you the clients and thus has hobbled your careeer … even in this hypothetical I’d doubt a solid business relationship between clients and their “go-to” guy would be so fragile as to be that easily destroyed. The hypothetical victim mentality is in holding that, even within ourselves, as the sole excuse for our failing. The presumption, the eagerness to believe, that it must have been that single event that caused your career to stall. Nothing else could be a factor too. Don’t even bother considering those possibilities. In contrast, someone who has an obstacle, oh hypothetically, let’s make it physically handicapped, and recognizes the institutional barriers, advocates for change to make buildings more accessible, etc., but still takes the position that their success or failure in the world will be contigent on their efforts in their job and is aware that sometimes they fail not because of bias against them, but just because they failed, that sucess is not assured for anyone anytime, is no victim.
I think holmes’ point is that often the term victim is applied to people unfairly, in a knee-jerk fashion. Ironically, much like the term racist. In the middle of a discussion about racism, merely acknowledging that racism is a problem incites others to get on the defensive. This defensiveness is manifested in the form of denial (“Racism is not that much of a problem today!”, name-calling (You’re a victim!"), and my personal favorite–calling other people racist (“Your racist for saying white people are racist, so there!”). I’ve seen all three behaviors in combination so many times that I consider it a psychological syndrome. Predictable as the tides.
I’m sure if I were to describe incidents that have occured in my life that I feel were racist in nature, there’d be someone telling me that I was mistaken. It would be all too easy to say that because the incidents were not blatant, in-your-face examples of racism. No one has ever called me “nigger” and no one has burned crosses in my yard, but I have witnessed and experienced discrimination in ways that would be unreasonable to chalk up to anything except racism. And yet I feel like these examples would not sufficiently convince the skeptics out there that racism is prevalent because there is always room to attribute my experiences to something other than race. As long as there is room to do that, the skeptics will continue to be skeptics. It’s almost as if they don’t want to believe.
As I type this, I’m reminded of the whole Katrina mess. I found it really interesting that most people had no qualms attributing classist motives for the slow response, but as soon as the “R” word was mentioned, heads started shaking in protest. I wondered why this was so. What makes it so easy to accept that in our society those with money are protected while those without are left to look after themselves, but its next to impossible to accept that whites are treated differently than blacks? The history of classism and racism in this country run parallel to one another, so to think one of them is a factor while rejecting the other as too unlikely strikes me as strange. But its indicative of how a lot of people in this country think: Race makes people uncomfortable.
youwiththeface,
And I again apologize for bringing up my sense that having low expectations of a group is itself a racist asssumption and thereby namecalling in an ugly way.
You clearly are right that there are a lot of knee-jerk reactions going on here, with people responding to what they are expecting to hear rather than to what has actually been said.
For Holmes’ hypothetical: he brought up thinking of himself as a victim. No one else was calling him that. What counts as being a victim, he asks? I’ve offered my thoughts on that subject. And to recap, to me there is a difference between appreciating the obstacles you face and dealing with them both for yourself and for those who will follow you (not accepting the role of victim), and using the fact that there are these obstacles as the sole excuse for any failures in your life (playing the part). Since I have no idea of the actual facts of his story I have no idea what is the case for him, but his presentation suggested to me that he was in the latter camp, that he was blaming his fizzled career on a convenient scapegoat of this one bad break. I could have misread.
My own statement of “call me a racist and dems fightin’ words” illustrates the sensitivity that you speak of. “Racist” is a very offensive term. I think fairly few people actually are overtly racist. But most of us (whether we be White, Black, Brown, or whatever) have preconceptions based on race that we are not even always aware effect our daily lives, and all of us participate in group actions that have racist effects (often unintentionally). Facing up to that ugliness within ourselves and thereby exerting conscious control over it is not easy.