Chappelle talks: Why I walked away.

Great Debates
261

First off, DSeid, I’d like to say thank you for your reasonable tone. It makes these discussions a lot easier when everyone can speak without being sarcastic and needlessly snarky.

Recently, there was a thread in which me and Askia discussed how racism should be defined, and one of the problems we both identified is people’s reactions to the word. Personally, I don’t find racist to be an inherently offensive term. People may use it as insult, but the word itself has a specific, non-derogatory meaning. I think it is unfortunate that people’s sensitivities get in the way of accepting the word as an appropiate means of communicating a very real phenomenon.

What I see is the tendency to use more gentle sounding euphemisms in place of the word racism, because folks’ gut-level response to the word makes them unable to accept that average people can be racist. “I don’t hate anyone, therefore I can’t be racist!” I see this as a particularly detrimental form of rationalization since 99.9% of the type of discrimination and prejudice out there is not based on hate, but rather ignorance, fear, and in-group/out-group dynamics. In other words, classic cases of “us vs. them” drawn by racial lines. People rationalize away actions that result in real problems, because in their eyes those actions are not racist and therefore not wrong. This is a dangerous idea.

You stated this well. Yes, the overt racists are few and far between. And I can say, as a black woman, not all the overt racists are bad, evil people. One of my neighbors a while ago was a white lady in her late 80’s and I liked her, even though every so often she would say racist things to me. For instance, the maintenance man for our complex would take her to the grocery store sometimes and do favors for her, and without fail she’d always express surprise that he was such a nice guy “even though he’s black”. Her sister living in Florida took a tumble outside one day and hurt her head, and my neighbor just couldn’t get over the fact that the good Sumaritan who called 911 and made sure she was okay was a black person. And my neighbor always made a point of complimenting me by saying that if she didn’t know any better, she’d think I was Sicilian and not black. “I don’t even see you are black, you know that?” she’d frequently remind me. Which made me wonder what is so wrong with me being black?

These little things registered in my awareness, but they didn’t keep me from seeing that she was a good person. Ignorant and old, but decent at heart. I never bothered challenging her assumptions because, at the end of the day, her opinions don’t affect my livelihood. Her racism is inconsequential, so it’s tolerable. Knowing when to pick your battles is important.

262

DSeid this is an imperfect forum for communication and sometimes in order to advance a position a hypothetical is used. The “what if” game as you call it can help to focus some issues that may be unclear or expose underlying preconceptions.

So no, I didn’t have every single possibility and detail laid out. What I wrote was simple enough, yet you, as noted made certain presumptions all of which were negative. If I make the same type of presumptions, I have a victim mentality.

When I clarified to explain why an action may have been done, you still found a reason to cast it in a negative light. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to take issue at being treated poorly by staff. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to take that issue up to a higher level. Apparently you do.

This eagerness to believe as you call it, could be some circles called seeing the world as it is and steeling oneself for another scar. It is luxury to be able to really believe in your of hearts that all you need is the strength of your convictions and hard work and all good things will come; despite seeing for most of your, if not all of your life the opposite. Yet everyday people who have been hurt in ways that you might not be able to imagine, steel themselves for another dose; despite the fact that they believe they are at disadvantage, despite the belief that they “know” they’re not going to get the job, or the mortgage or the good seat in the resturant. Sometimes they’re right. The question is, who gets to judge when they’re wrong? You? Me? I don’t see how, as we’re not in their shoes.

It is a luxury to believe that you didn’t get the job because you just didn’t get it, that if you just try harder you can do better. Imagine believing that you didn’t get it because of something you can’t change? If it happens enough it becomes a cancer, I don’t blame people for building a strong, overcoat. Which is really what this is.

You focus on failure and maybe that’s where the disconnect is. I don’t think it’s unrealistic for people who have been historically persecuted, to have a certain level of distrust in the system. I don’t think it unreasonable to walk into a store, or office, or driving your car, notice one group of people being treated one way and you being treated another and not assume it’s the same ol, same 'ol; because last week it was or the week before that, or the day before. You call it being a raised a victim, I call it being human.

Now of course they may be wrong. It may be that the fault lies within themselves, but the inability to recognize that fault is something that we all suffer from; regardless of our roots. The difference is of course, and I think that’s what’s bugging me is that we don’t consider most people ‘victims’ for not being able to recognize that fault, we only consider those people who have an actual legimate reason to believe that the fault lies in other people; to have a victim mentality.

If you read my posts I focus on a form of success, what do I meant by that? I don’t consider a person a victim, if everyday, despite his deep, real belief that the man is out to get em, but he still puts on his pants on goes to face that man; a victim.

As Antinor0 noted perhaps another term is needed, to descibe this person. He may be too cynical; but a victim, I don’t think so.

Apparently you’re the only who believed my hypothetical was anything but…further there were two examples in that hypothetical, one of which as I have stated several times, does quite well for himself despite still believing he got a bad break. In fact the majority of my posts have focused on people who believe the man is out to get them, but still do well in their lives, so I find it interesting that you still go out of your way to toss out the victim card.

Yeah, you misread.

263

Yes, I did, Holmes. I read it as you discussing something that really happened to you, or at least your perception of those events. And the story just didn’t ring true. Now I know why. I don’t know if I was alone in making that misread or not. But it was not what you meant.

youwiththeface, thank you for the reasonable tone as well. You are of course correct. My unavoidable preconceptions, and yours, and all of ours, and the unavoidable desire to look out for the good of our own family/kinship/tribe/group, creates what can be called some “racism” in all of us, depending on how we define the term. My point to Rubystreak (that she apparently feels is unreasonable) is merely that helping people face that bit of themselves and to do something about it, helping society do something about it, is ill-served by using the words that are assured to get the neck hairs up and to cause people to react with defensiveness. It is best served if you can own up to your own warts along the way and give others the same benefit of the doubt, the same lack of color-based preconceptions as to their actions and motivations, that you want for yourself. She and I will have to disagree about what is tip-toeing, and what is just commonsense. Me, I am the son of a salesman. I learned that you best make a sale by developing a relationship, which entails respecting the other person, and giving them reason to respect you, not by high-pressure techniques. This owning up to our ugliness and taking responsibility for it is a tough sale to make.

264

Man, I just registered because this most be one of the funniest things I have read in my life. My friend, ALL of the wealthy Latin Americans are latinos. Trust me, I know. I live in latin america. We don’t have a race divide, we have a class divide.

As for David Chappelle, I believe the whole race thing is just an excuse for an unprofessional behavior. He had some sort of nervous breakdown and left the third season midway through, and now he pulls out some stuff about this being a “race” issue? That’s a line of bull if I’ve ever seen one.

The point is, the man left. Without notice. Leaving several people (white, black, latinos, whatever) who worked on his show, both in front and behind the cameras, hanging. They depended on him, and he left them hanging. Did he have some stress? Did he need the time out? Possibly. But that does not give him an excuse to leave. If I’m working in a project at my office and I leave all of a sudden because I feel “I’m not true to myself”, well, I could actually get sued, because of breach of contract. Why should we treat Chappelle with kid’s gloves? because he’s “black”? Actually, that would be racist. He’d be getting some special treatment because of his race.

And why should people leave him alone? Because he’s “black”? When Wynona had her shoplifting craze, reporters were all over her, and I don’t see anyone saying that they were on her because she’s white. They were covering her because she’s a celebrity, and people like to hear every deep and disturbed story about their beloved celebrities. Same reason why people want to know about Chappelle.

So let’s stop turning this into what it isn’t. This is not about race, or about the white man owning america. This is about an irresponsible man who couldn’t handle the pressure.

265

…and plenty of clueless whites say the same thing about this side of the border. Why should we trust you?

266

Probably if you read all these books, you’d have a more complicated view of things. “Latino” describes a linguistic and cultural catagory, not a racial one. One can be a Japanese-Jewish mix and still be “Latino”.

Here is a part of an interesting article on race in Mexico. Things get even more intense as you go south- just look at the “ladino-ization” of Guatemala, where people of this Mayan dominated country are dropping their Mayan hertiage like crazy in an attempt to pass. I’ve personally seen kids being called “dirty” and “backwards” for speaking Mayan languages instead of Spanish.

. A google search for "white elite latin america’ gives plenty of reading material.

267

Ok, let’s get something straight: There are no “Whites” or “blacks” in latin america. The “latino” is an intercrossed breed, one that appeared when the spanish conquistadors started mating with the native indians who lived in South America, and the slaves brought here from Africa. This mix of races and cultures, over the years, is what is known as a “Latino”. A “latino” can be white skinned, or he can be dark skinned. It only depends on his parents. So saying that there are “black” latinos and “white” latinos is absurd. There are only latinos.

Second, I’m not going to go into the details of each particular country, but most of latin america, regardless of race, creed, or gender, are poor. In most countries, something near 80% of the population is considered either “poor” or “extremely poor”. and the remaining 20% is most certainly not white. Take a look at Ecuador’s president (he’s of indian descent) . At Venezuela’s president (he’s a dark skinned man). Look at Fidel Castro and all his aides. Look at Paraguay, Bolivia, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Trinidad… None of these guys are “white”. They are filthy rich, that’s what they are. So the great divide, as I said, is not a race one, but a class one. There’s a 20% minority that’s filthy rich, and an 80% mayority that’s extremely poor, and they hate each other for it. Or, more accurately, they have been led by their government to hate each other, so that they are too blind to notice how the government is robbing them blind.

Oh, and one thing about the language issue, and the kids being called “dirty” or whatever because they speak mayan. I don’t know how it is over there, as I don’t live in Guatemala or Mexico, but over here, people have to get on with the program. The official language here is Spanish, it has been so for about 200 years, and people have been speaking it here for about 500 years. If you want to keep your indian inheritance, and live in the jungle, or whatever, you can do so, and there’s even government aide for those who choose to do so. But if you’re living in the big city, NOBODY is going to understand a word of mayan because NOBODY knows how to speak it. So it’s not too far fetched to expect people to speak your own languange when they talk to you. If people insult kids because they speak mayan, well, that’s just mean, but if a kid speaks mayan he can’t truly expect people to understand him.

268

Okay, but in Guatemala 80%- city or jungle- of people are Mayan. The place where I was (an ophanage in the jungle) was nearly 100% Mayan. And yet each generation, somehow, there are less and less people who will claim to be of Mayan decent. That 20% of people who are not of Mayan decent must sure get around.

In a culture where race doesn’t matter, “passing” as another race would be a silly game, not a time honored way of getting ahead of life.

It made news here when the President of Bolivia said he was going to abolish the Department of Indian Affairs because the Indians were now in charge and wouldn’t need it any more. The elites in Latin America are changing, and each place has it’s own set of problems, but Latin America is no more a haven from racism than the United States.

269

80% of the people may be of mayan descent, but they are all Guatemalan. And the official language of Guatemala, as it has been for a couple hundred years, is the spanish. You probably saw a situation that is hard to be seen in the city, since you were in an orphanage in the jungle.

It’s odd, though, to hear that more and more people over there claim not to be of Mayan descent. I could understand that the new generations, no longer isolated in the jungle, realize that there’s a lot out there in the big cities, so they may be willing to leave their tribes. But to go so far as to renounce their heritage? That may be a bit harsh. Maybe they feel a bit ashamed that they lived in the jungle, so they want to pass as “normal” people? It’s truly odd. I’ve never heard, seen, or witnessed people being discriminated upon because they were indian. Sure, there are always bastards who try to take advantage of them, or stuff like that, but nothing widespread.

As for the Bolivian incident, you’re reading too much into it. It may look as a race motivated incident, and I’m sure there’s a little bit of it involved, but that’s mostly a political maneuver. A way to claim control of the government. a way to show how “Now they’re the ones in charge”. Sort of the way a hunter poses with his prey.

270

Way to hijack a topic, by the way.

271

Unlike airplanes, thread hijackings can only occur with the willing cooperation of the participants.

272

It may be absurd, but in the US, “Latino” is considered a cultural group, not a racial group. You can be Latino/white or Latino black, and probably anything else, too. I am not making this up; it’s right there on the 2000 US Census.

Just to confuse things further… the pleasure is all mine. :wink: