Cheney, Dick

[SteveG1]

@Kimmy_Gibbler

Conservatives are so beyond you liberal elites and your “facts.”

Yup, yup. Those wacky guys and their “we create our own reality”. Ten points to anyone who remembers that little gem.

[Starving_Artist]

@Gangster_Octopus

What is your crieteria that it is domestic terrorism while the snipers are not?

Oh, well why didn’t you say so?

The criteria is that the Murrah Building bombing was a intended as a blow to the federal government with the intent of publicizing its misdoings, whereas the DC killings were the result of a couple of wacked-out malcontents taking out their frustrations by shooting random people from a car and belatedly and stupidly trying to extort money in trade for it to stop.

It’s amazing the things one has to spell out on this, the most intelligent message board on the planet.

[SteveG1]

@mswas

How the relationship to counter-terrorism changed with 9/11 and how they were moving into uncharted territory operating with a new set of distinctions. How the ‘after-the-fact’ law enforcement methods fell short in prior administrations, and so they went to a system of pre-emption. It represented a radical shift in policy. I also whole-heartedly agree with him that going after the previous administration for political decisions that are disagreed upon sets a dangerous precedent and would mean that every Presidential administration from here on out would be subject to trials every time the dominant party shifted. It would be a horrible catastrophe for the nation. I disagree with his idea that the ends totally justified the means but I do understand his rationale, I disagree with it on moral grounds, but not to the point where I irrationally hate him and am filled with disgust every time I see him on TV.

I see your point about a dangerous precedent, but then not taking action when our own laws were deliberately violated also sets a dangerous precedent. Which poison do we take?
As for Cheney, I’m sorry. I could not disagree more with him on moral/ethcical grounds. And, I have come to despise him. I consider him to be a a dangerous man, and totally devoid of any scruples.

[Captain_Carrot]

@Starving_Artist

whereas the DC killings were the result of a couple of wacked-out malcontents taking out their frustrations by shooting random people from a car and belatedly and stupidly trying to extort money in trade for it to stop.

Except that there’s a good deal of evidence that Muhammad and Malvo were trying to create an atmosphere of fear, and other stuff that pretty much defines terrorism.

[Gangster_Octopus]

@Starving_Artist

Oh, well why didn’t you say so?

The criteria is that the Murrah Building bombing was a intended as a blow to the federal government with the intent of publicizing its misdoings, whereas the DC killings were the result of a couple of wacked-out malcontents taking out their frustrations by shooting random people from a car and belatedly and stupidly trying to extort money in trade for it to stop.

It’s amazing the things one has to spell out on this, the most intelligent message board on the planet.

Malvo testified that they wanted to spread chaos nationwide and there was plenty of evidence to indicate jihadist intentions.

[Robot_Arm]

@Starving_Artist

Timothy McVeigh and the Murrah Building bombing does count as domestic terrorism, however, and if you want to play that kind of game I’ll point out that Bill Clinton was president at the time.

Yeah, but by your rationale, Clinton gets a pass on that. Bush the Elder never took any actions to contain the threat of truck bombings in the midwest.

[Squink]

@Starving Artist

And then, once that precedent had occurred, President Bush made sure it didn’t happen again.

Aren’t you forgetting Luke Helder, The Smiley Face Bomber?

The first 16 bombs were arranged in two circles, one in Illinois and Iowa and the other in Nebraska. On a map, the circles could resemble the eyes of the popular 1970s happiness symbol. The final two bombs, found in Colorado and Texas, form an arc that could be the beginning of a smile.

“There was a comment made to one of my officers about his hope to make a smiley face when he was all finished,” Pershing County Sheriff Ron Skinner said.

Skinner said Luke Helder made the comments to an undercover county officer shortly after his arrest outside Reno on Tuesday.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0509-05.htm

That was in 2002.
President Bush didn’t prevent that.

[askeptic]

@SteveG1

Yup, yup. Those wacky guys and their “we create our own reality”. Ten points to anyone who remembers that little gem.

“We are an Empire now” some flunky in the Bush admin quoted by Suskind. Where do I get my 10 points. SA seems to be a firm believer…

[grayhairedmomma]

@Starving_Artist

Wacked-out thrill killers do not count as domestic terrorists, in my opinion.

From the wiki article linked above:

Part of his testimony concerned John Allen Muhammad’s complete multiphase plan. His plan consisted of three phases in the Washington, D.C. and Baltimore metro areas. Phase one consisted of meticulously planning, mapping, and practicing their locations around the D.C. area. This way after each shooting they would be able to quickly leave the area on a predetermined path, and move on to the next location. John Allen Muhammad’s goal in Phase One was to kill 6 people a day for 30 days. Malvo went on to describe how Phase One did not go as planned due to heavy traffic and the lack of a clear shot and/or getaway at different locations.

Phase Two was meant to be moved up to Baltimore. Malvo described how this phase was close to being implemented, but never was carried out. Phase Two was intended to begin by killing a pregnant woman by shooting her in the stomach. The next step would have been to shoot and kill a Baltimore police officer. Then, at the officer’s funeral, they were to create several improvised explosive devices complete with shrapnel. These explosives were intended to kill a large number of police, since many police would attend another officer’s funeral.

The last phase was to take place very shortly after, if not during, Phase Two. The third phase was to extort several million dollars from the United States government. This money would be used to finance a larger plan. The plan was to travel north into Canada. Along the way they would stop in YMCAs and orphanages recruiting other impressionable young boys with no parents or guidance. John Allen Muhammad thought he could act as their father figure as he did with Lee Boyd Malvo. Once he recruited a large number of young boys and made his way up to Canada, he would begin their training. Malvo described how John Allen Muhammad intended to train all these boys with weapons and stealth, as he had been taught. Finally, after their training was complete, John Allen Muhammad would send them out across the United States to carry out mass shootings in many different cities, just as he had done in Washington and Baltimore. These attacks would be coordinated, and were intended to send the country into chaos.

A series of trial exhibits indicated that Malvo and Muhammed were motivated by an affinity for Islamic Jihad.[22]

@Starving_Artist

And I’d be willing to bet you never gave a thought to blaming him in the same way that you’re so quick to blame Bush for not stopping a couple of nut jobs who were shooting people from inside a car.

I don’t blame Bush/Cheney for not stopping these domestic terrorists who operated right in their own frontyard. But I am really fucking fed up with the people who insist that Bush/Cheney kept us 100% safe from terrorists.

[Dinsdale]

@Starving_Artist

You people seriously need to get a grip. It’s nonsense to praise past politicians for preventing attacks that had no precedent.

Yeah, it’s a shame that prior to 9/11 there was no precedent for - say - muslim-backed bombing aimed at the WTT. How could Dick and Dubya have been expected to know? :rolleyes:

And I don’t think you should hold folk to too strict of a standard in terms of defining “domestic terrorists.” After all, the Patriot Act doesn’t do so either.

[TV_time]

@Gangster_Octopus

…BTW, why does Cheney hate freedom?..

How dare you sir…He does not hate freedom…He’s all in favor of it…well,… for old fat, bald, white guys, at least. That way he, Linburgh, Rowe, and Rumsfeldt are sitting kind of pretty.

[BlankSlate]

@Starving_Artist

That’s what I love about this place. There’s always someone willing to grasp at straws.

Right-wing domestic terrorism doesn’t count? Maybe it was some of them Irakees that what did niner-eleven.

[Merijeek]

@BlankSlate

Right-wing domestic terrorism doesn’t count? Maybe it was some of them Irakees that what did niner-eleven.

How about the E.L.F.? I’ll bet they count, being a bunch of goddamned Leftists.

-Joe

[LouisB]

@elucidator

I think it would be entertaining as all git-out to see Cheney stoned! Not what you meant, but still…

make that “public burning” rather than “public stoning.”

[Richard_Parker]

@mswas

How the relationship to counter-terrorism changed with 9/11 and how they were moving into uncharted territory operating with a new set of distinctions. How the ‘after-the-fact’ law enforcement methods fell short in prior administrations, and so they went to a system of pre-emption. It represented a radical shift in policy. I also whole-heartedly agree with him that going after the previous administration for political decisions that are disagreed upon sets a dangerous precedent and would mean that every Presidential administration from here on out would be subject to trials every time the dominant party shifted. It would be a horrible catastrophe for the nation.

Each of the things you agree with–9/11 means we need new structures, a post facto criminal approach fails, and retrospective prosecutions would be a political disaster-- is something that Obama also either explicitly stated in his speech or also agrees with.

Obviously the parts people are finding objectionable are the points of disagreement, many of which are either internally contradictory or outright knowing misrepresentations of the facts.

[LouisB]

@Starving_Artist

Why, certainly! There just couldn’t be enough Americans dying (nor brown people, can’t forget them) to suit my taste. :rolleyes:

Her TV makes me sad too.

Hmm…I wonder what would be the reaction if I were to say that my opponents around here hate America?

A much different one than you’ll get, I’d wager.

IF, and that is a BIG IF, in case you didn’t notice, any of your opponents were to say they hated America, they would probably do so as a result of informed opinions, rather than blatant lies spoken by a blatant liar.

[LouisB]

@Captain_Carrot

What the fuck are you talking about?
And 9/11 still happened on his goddamned watch.

Yeah, but after it happened, then what? Huh? You didn’t see any more of that kind of shit, did you? HE KEPT IT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN! There are none so blind as those who will not see.

[Birdmonster]

@LouisB

Yeah, but after it happened, then what? Huh? You didn’t see any more of that kind of shit, did you? HE KEPT IT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN! There are none so blind as those who will not see.

I’d like to buy your rock, LouisB.

[LouisB]

@Birdmonster

I’d like to buy your rock, LouisB.

There really are none so blind as those who will not see.

[Birdmonster]

@LouisB

There really are none so blind as those who will not see.

I’d recommend seeing a mirror.