Chess: Glee v Chessic Sense

The Game Room
61

Glee Chessic Sense
1.d4 Nf6
2. c4 e6
3. Nc3 Bb4
4. a3 Bxc3+
5. bxc3 b6
6. f3 Ba6
7. e4 Nc6
8. Bd3 Na5
9. Qe2 Qc8
10. Nh3 c5
11. d5 e5
12. f4 d6
13. O-O Nb3
14. Rb1 Nxc1
15. Rbxc1 Qd7
16. fxe5 dxe5
17. a4 O-O
18. Rf5 Rae8
19. Rcf1 Bc8
20. Ng5 Qxa4
21. Rxf6 gxf6
22. Nxh7
game

If 22. … Kxh7
23. Qh5+

First a pawn sacrifice, then the exchange (Rook for bishop /knight), then a knight sacrifice. :cool:

Analysis to follow (I typed it at home and then my Internet connection went down. Should appear tonight…)

62

We’re waiting! For the life of me I can’t figure out what you’re up to…

63

…never mind.

64

Glee Chessic Sense
1.d4 Nf6
2. c4 e6
3. Nc3 Bb4
4. a3 Bxc3+
5. bxc3 b6
6. f3 Ba6
7. e4 Nc6
8. Bd3 Na5
9. Qe2 Qc8
10. Nh3 c5
11. d5 e5
12. f4 d6
13. O-O Nb3
14. Rb1 Nxc1
15. Rbxc1 Qd7
16. fxe5 dxe5
17. a4 O-O
18. Rf5 Rae8
19. Rcf1 Bc8
20. Ng5 Qxa4
21. Rxf6 gxf6
22. Nxh7 Kxh7
23. Qh5+ Kg7game

I offer a draw…:cool:

Let’s see it!

65

Glee Chessic Sense
1.d4 Nf6
2. c4 e6
3. Nc3 Bb4
4. a3 Bxc3+
5. bxc3 b6
6. f3 Ba6
7. e4 Nc6
8. Bd3 Na5
9. Qe2 Qc8
10. Nh3 c5
11. d5 e5
12. f4 d6
13. O-O Nb3
14. Rb1 Nxc1
15. Rbxc1 Qd7
16. fxe5 dxe5
17. a4 O-O
18. Rf5 Rae8
19. Rcf1 Bc8
20. Ng5 Qxa4
21. Rxf6 gxf6
22. Nxh7 Kxh7
23. Qh5+ Kg7
(Black offers draw)
24. Qh4
(declined)

game

66

After 21. Rxf6 gxf6, I analysed three possibilities:
A) Nxh7
B)Rxf6
C) Qh5

A)

22. Nxh7 Kxh7 (otherwise White recovers the exchange and keeps the attack)
23. Qh5+ Kg7 (if …Kg8 Rf3 and Rg3 wins)
24. Qh4 Rg8! (Black can’t defend f6, e.g. …Re6 Qg4+ Kh8 Rf3 wins. If …Rh8 Qxf6+ Kh7 Qxf7+ Kh6 Rf6+ mates)
25. Qxf6+ Kh7
26. Qh4+ Kg7 (if Qxf7+ Rg7 Qh5+ Kg8 then the attack is dying…)
27. Qf6+
Verdict: drawn (by repetition), provided Black finds …Rg8

B)

22. Rxf6 Kg7! (otherwise Qh5 wins)
23. Nxh7 with complications – although …Kxh7 loses to Qh5+, Black has moves like …Rh8 and Qa1+ to analyse
Verdict: unclear (but risky for White)

C)

22. Qh5 fxg5 (else Qxh7 mate)
23. Qxg5+ Kh8
24. Qf6+ Kg8
25. Rf3 Qg1+
26. Bf1 Bg4! (if …h5 Qg5+ Kh7 Qxh5+ Kg7 Rg3+ and mates
27. Rg3 h5
28. h3
Verdict: unclear (but White has an attack for the rook)

So which move would you pick?
Well my automatic choice is A) Nxh7. This is because I don’t like losing (eek), nor entering into complications I can’t fully analyse.
In case you think I’m too cautious:
I once asked a bunch of players in the British Championship how they felt after 2 rounds, all having scored 50%.
Everyone who had made 2 draws said they felt good and were ready to ‘build up’. Those with a win and a draw felt shaky – because the loss was on their mind (even though both groups had the same score.)

67

Glee Chessic Sense
1.d4 Nf6
2. c4 e6
3. Nc3 Bb4
4. a3 Bxc3+
5. bxc3 b6
6. f3 Ba6
7. e4 Nc6
8. Bd3 Na5
9. Qe2 Qc8
10. Nh3 c5
11. d5 e5
12. f4 d6
13. O-O Nb3
14. Rb1 Nxc1
15. Rbxc1 Qd7
16. fxe5 dxe5
17. a4 O-O
18. Rf5 Rae8
19. Rcf1 Bc8
20. Ng5 Qxa4
21. Rxf6 gxf6
22. Nxh7 Kxh7
23. Qh5+ Kg7
(Black offers draw)
24. Qh4 Rg8
1/2-1/2 <—Agreed now?

I know you were hoping for Rh8, mindlessly checking the White Queen and eventually getting mated by 25. Qxf6+ Kh7 26. Qxf7+ Kh6 27. Rf6+ Kg5 28. Qg6+! (not Rg6+) Kh4 29. g3+! Kh3 30. Bf1#

You’ve gotta love it when the problem piece returns to its original square to deliver mate, eh?

I read glee’s spoiler box, and I see he saw the same drawing line(s) that I did (and thus why I offered the draw), so I figure I’ll just comment on why Rg8 is the right move. The main reason is that it prevents any checks on the g-file, whereas Rh8 just guards the h-file…a place white has no problem attacking from the side. It also clears away f8 for my king, so in certain lines, the Black king can squirt out of danger via f8-e7-d7, etc.

Then there’s the concept of simply hiding behind my rook after Rg7. With a rook on any N2 square, the king can hide in the corner or any adjacent square and be relatively safe. Finally, if White doesn’t check right away and repeatedly, my g7 rook can be defended when my queen comes back to the 7th rank, assuming the f7 pawn was taken.

Lastly, the g rook attacks g2 and g3. Should White try to bring the other rook (or bishop, somehow) into the attack via f3-g3-h3, my Queen can check at d1 and skewer the g2 square next move. This turns the tables on White and yields at least a perpetual check.

Finally, one should note the “elementary” idea that any trades help the defender, and after sac’ing a knight and rook, White’s tank is running on fumes. If he trades rooks in any line by, say, putting a rook on g3, he’ll have to settle for perpetual or face a mating counter-attack. “You can’t mate with one piece,” they say.

68

And btw, back when we were talking about which rook to move, check out this line…

Game

And all of a sudden, the rook is free to go f1-f4-h4+. In our game, there’s no way to get to f4 safely, and thus no safe entry to the g and h files.

69

Glee Chessic Sense
1.d4 Nf6
2. c4 e6
3. Nc3 Bb4
4. a3 Bxc3+
5. bxc3 b6
6. f3 Ba6
7. e4 Nc6
8. Bd3 Na5
9. Qe2 Qc8
10. Nh3 c5
11. d5 e5
12. f4 d6
13. O-O Nb3
14. Rb1 Nxc1
15. Rbxc1 Qd7
16. fxe5 dxe5
17. a4 O-O
18. Rf5 Rae8
19. Rcf1 Bc8
20. Ng5 Qxa4
21. Rxf6 gxf6
22. Nxh7 Kxh7
23. Qh5+ Kg7
(Black offers draw)
24. Qh4 Rg8
1/2-1/2 <—Agreed now?

I accept the draw - well played! :slight_smile:

(N.B. it’s polite to play on after Kg7 rather than offer the draw, since I think any other move than Rg8 loses - so you need to show you’ve seen that.)

**I don’t play chess on hope **- I always assume my opponent will play the best move.
As I said I chose A Nxh7 as I kept the draw in hand.

I think you’re reading too much into Rg8!
The only point is that the rook can intervene on g7 after 25. Qxf6+ Kh7 26. Qxf7+.
Fior example, the rook vacating f8 is no help, since Black is mated if he moves his King there.

My attack was considerably better than ‘running on fumes’!
As my analysis showed, I have 3 ways to continue the attack, each of which requires you to find precise move(s) to avoid mate.

I don’t have a computer program myself, but I’d be interested to see if either B 22. Rxf6 or C 22. Qh5 is a forced win.

70

I think Black has an easy win here after 24. Qh4 Qd7 (instead of 24. … Rg8?)
Since f7 is guarded, Qxf6+ Kf8 prepares to bring the King to safety.
This shows why I mistrusted Rae8 - to clear f8 the rooks would both have to move…

71

From my (slightly out of date) comp:

22.Qh5 fxg5 23.Qxg5+ Kh8 24.Qf6+
Draw by perp.

22.Rxf6 Kg7 23.Nxh7 Qxa1+ 24.Rf1 Qxc3 25.Nxf8 Rxf8
Advantage for white (+0.75)

22.Rxf6 Kg7 23.Qf3
Winning for white; for example:

23…Qa1+ 24.Bf1 Qe1 25.Rxf7+ Rxf7 26.Qxf7+ Kh6 27.Nf3 Qe3+ 28.Kh1 Qc1 29.Ng1 (+5.59)

23…Qd7 24.d6! (+5.51 - threat 25.Qh5 Kxf6 26.Qh6#)
Nice variation: 24…Qg4 25.Rxf7+ Rxf7 26.Qxf7+ Kh6 27.Qf6+ Kh5 28.Nf7 Re6 29.Qf5+ Qxf5 30.exf5. Black has no time to save the rook, because 30…Re8 31.Be2+ Kh4 32.g3+ Kh3 33.Ng5#.

72

Mine came up with the same results as borachevsky. One thing I did notice (with computer help) that it looks like in the analysis of C, 28.h3 doesn’t work out. Black can play Q->d2->f4, in which the white queen can’t give check, and when it moves away to protect the rook, Black plays f6, giving the king some safety. White may even be at a disadvantage there (brief analysis gives -0.28). A draw out of Qh5 seems the only way to go.

73

I’m glad you offered that as I was trying to find a way to ask about the etiquette of offering–and accepting–a draw.

But after your post above you say:

Can you elucidate a little, please? How can it be that any move other than Rg8 loses, and at the same time… it’s not so important? I am reading the thread, but I must be missing some crucial concept.

I’ll admit that I have always hated draws for that reason. Puzzles that start White to play and draw, or Black to play and draw… I rarely can get them right. And I played a game not long ago where I had a “forced” draw, but I missed it. I have a hard time seeing draw potential.

74

“Etiquette” is something invented by strong players to intimidate weaker players. There’s a certain way to do it in the rulebooks, and so long as you do it that way, the opponent has no ground to stand on. Don’t let anyone tell you differently, and if anyone wants to take you to task for some breach of “etiquette”, tell them to shove it up their ass.

Not that glee is taking me to task or anything…

He didn’t say it wasn’t important. He’s just saying that it serves an immediate purpose- to block a check from f7. I gave a bit more detail, showing what it could do down the road (Boost …Qxg2+, for example), but glee’s absolutely right- the immediate purpose it to get called up to g7 in the event of a check. Better still, a stalwart g7 rook allows the king to dance around behind it, stepping out of any delivered checks. Check on the h file? Kg8. Check on the 8th rank? Kh7. Checks from f7, f6, or g6? Not today, sir!

You see that a lot when pawn cover is destroyed. When the front line falls, somebody’s got to step up and act as bodyguard. Today, it was the rook’s job. You’ll also see it in Indian defenses w/ Bg7.

75
  1. The correct way to offer a draw is to:
  • make your move on the board
  • offer a draw
  • press your clock

Notes.
You need to make a move first. (Otherwise your opponent could just sit there, thinking about the draw, until you run out of time.)
You should offer before you press your clock. (If your opponent is short of time and you press the clock before offering the draw, they may reply instantly. This invalidates their accepting the draw.)

  1. The correct time to offer a draw is:

  • when you have not made a draw offer recently (continuous draw offers are an annoying and illegal distraction, and the Tournament Director can penalise you. Your opponent knows you’re happy with a draw after the first offer - he’ll offer if he wants one. I only make draw offers at least 20 moves apart.)

  • early on (e.g. in the last round of a tournament where neither player is in sight of a prize and both may want to leave early to beat traffic)

  • when the position has been level for a while (particularly if it benefits your team)

  • if you are better (but are happy with a draw)

  • if you have been better (but feel the position is turning against you)

  • not when you are worse and your opponent has a draw in hand (so when Chessic Sense offered a draw after both 23. … Kg7 and 24. … Rg8, he was being cheeky! :eek: Since I could either take a draw or risk all on an attack, I don’t want the distraction of my opponent offering draws)

P.S. Etiquette is what makes chess a civilised game. if you do have a problem with your opponent, call the Tournament Director (or your team captain.) Don’t be rude.

76

Chessic Sense has played well in this training game and helpfully shared his thoughts. (That helps me as a coach and I trust this thread has helped kibitzers too!)

However I think he ‘went too far’ in discussing various ideas behind Rg8 (e.g. attacking g2 + g3.)
It’s the ‘only move’ to save the game, so that’s why it must be played. Any other ‘benefits’ are purely co-incidental, and simply don’t count in deciding whether to play Rg8.

To give a light-hearted example - after:

  1. e4 e5
  2. Bc4 Bc5
  3. Qh5

Black could consider 3. … Qe7, but reject it :confused: as ‘it brings out the Queen too early’.
Actually it’s a good move here, since it defends f7 and e5, as well as preparing Nf6 (driving back the White Queen.)
In contrast 3. … Nf6 develops a piece, controls the centre, prepares to castle and attacks the White Queen. However after 4. Qxf7 mate :smack: , none of that general stuff matters!

77

I’m not sure if you’d prefer to just let this thread die or not… but I have another question.

I know this was a training game (though probably more for the likes of myself rather than chessic sense) but, in retrospect, do you “regret” making the attack rather than continuing to build up?

I use the quotes to indicate that as an object lesson, a draw in a training game is a good thing!

More to the point though, I didn’t see a lot of other attacking possibilities and you seemed to acknowledge that you had a bit of a block-headed bishop, so I have to wonder if you already thought the game was looking drawish, and so went for a more direct approach?

I guess I’m asking glee but obviously appreciate other views.

78

I’m happy to keep this thread going - the game can provide discussion and examples.

As it was a training game, I decided to play an opening I’ve never played as White before. :eek:
(I have played the opening as Black, so I understood the theory and ideas, but I knew that White’s pawn weaknesses and bad bishop meant I would need to attack using my space advantage.)

It looks as if I missed a (difficult) win with 22. Rxf6 Kg7 23. Qf3 Qd7 24. d6! (threatening Qh5), so my opening play was sound.
Calculating such very complicated lines is not my style (I’m a positional + endings specialist), but the game was certainly educational and I hope the spectators enjoyed it. :slight_smile:

79

Then, if I may, let me question a little…

As far as “what the opening is,” would you agree with the idea that the opening ‘ends’ when “The Player” (either player) connects their Rs? Or do you feel it is more arbitrary, such that it applies to a “game” in general?

To expand: the English Opening could be described as c4, but obviously that doesn’t speak to much more than the opening move. Of course, there is the book line to the English which is far more complex.

Obviously, you have played d4 as White in the past, so I’m thinking you’re position is somewhere in the middle (this being a chess discussion and all).

I assume you mean educational for others rather than yourself (although I’m being presumptuous in that).

Regardless, I enjoyed it very, very much and I appreciate Chessic Sense’s participation. Thank You both!

Excuse me for multi-posting so much, but it’ probably easier to continue in another post…

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Let me see how well (or even if) I get what you’re saying.

To use an example, there is an absolute pin–where it is illegal to move a given piece (unless you are taking the pinning piece); and there is a relative pin–where the move may or may not make tactical sense, but which is, regardless, legal.

So, a given move makes sense, but really, considering the “rules & laws” (e.g. don’t move the same piece twice in the opening) it is secondary to something like an “absolute” move, where the benefit is…? What?? Long term? Game-winning? Positionally nice?