That’s completely idiotic. I’m just reading some scientific studies, and I’m not afraid of the conclusions. I am not using those studies to support any pre-existing ideas about race.
In fact, of the two of us, you seem to be the one letting their prejudices get in the way. You haven’t read these studies, or articles discussing these studies, and you don’t care to, because you know they are wrong based on your pre-existing ideas.
You asked for my opinion, dude, when you asked “what am I kidding myself about exactly?” I’ve read your many posts, and this is my opinion. I did offer up several possibilities, but this one seems more likely than others. More likely than trolling, for example.
But you seem to be stating that your opinions are derived from the data. If so, then it begs the question - if you aren’t “using these studies to support…pre-existing ideas about race”, why are you all burrowed up in this topic? Are you in fact a sociologist, or any kind of scientist? And if not, where does the impetus to be the race expert come from?
So you’ve read my posts and concluded that I’m a racist. Well I’ve concluded that you are a fucking idiot.
My undergrad degree was in sociology, and I read the Bell Curve when it came out. I’m interested in this issue mainly because I got interested in it back in my college days and have just been following it ever since.
I also think it is interesting to see how so many people (like you) think that a person must be a racist if they don’t automatically dismiss these studies. So, on this messageboard, I end up discussing this topic a lot.
Participants in this thread may be interested in this poll (of sorts) in IMHO: What is your general opinion on these three scientific topics? - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board
Can you help me understand where you deriving this “standard deviation” from? I didn’t see what a standard deviation would be from the cite…
Thanks.
In any case, it’s a mistake to conclude that we are well on our way to ending the problem simply because some groups in some locations have narrowed the gap. It’s like saying we are ending the problem of disproportionate NBA representation (hi, you with the face!) because a handful of eastern europeans from a sub-population there is able to perform (almost) on par with the black cohort (themselves mostly of West African origin).
The dilemma we face is the group average for the entire group, and I’d guess the black sub-population most left behind is the one left in our large cities.
I’m sorry to see that I’ve managed to get so far up your nose over the course of the morning. I’ve reread our posts, and I have to admit, I don’t see the cause for the vitriol, especially considering how cool you usually are in pit.
From my point of view I’ve just told you my suspicion that you’re tending to look for data to support an idea you have in your head - rather than being driven by the data. We all do this to some degree, and it either makes us excellent scientists who can ferret out an idea from a pile of dross, or else misguided fools - so I didn’t think I was insulting you particularly. The fact that you are constantly at this issue also suggests that it’s more than a passing interest you’ve maintained from your college days, but one person’s monomania is someone else’s hobby, I guess.
I’ve also suggested that the science in this area is fundamentally flawed - I’m not sure good science can be done on some of these questions. That said, I’m not a sociologist, I’m an earth scientist, so perhaps it’s science snobbery on my part. Still, you claim you’re convinced by them, so fine.
That said, I’d still like to understand why there is no legion of sociologists espousing your viewpoint, but maybe I’ll get that in your new thread.
For 8th grade math, the national white mean score is 290. The black national mean score is 259. Set the white mean at 100, and the black mean on this scale is 89. A full standard deviation, on most standardized tests, is fifteen points below the mean: 85. Advocates of the racial thesis routinely state that the gap is always and everywhere a full standard deviation. As the authors of the test score gap point out, the gap hasn’t been this large for a generation.
Comparing black 8th graders in math in Oregon (272) to white 8th graders nationally (290), the black mean is 93 to the white mean of 100.
I never said that we’re on our way to solving the problem. What I said was, if black kids nationally performed at the same level as black kids in Oregon, we’d be on our way to solving the problem. Black kids in Oregon outscored white kids in some other states.
As it stands now, very little of what the government does will improve the situation, and may end up making the problem worse - see the gap in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Connecticut.
Your contention was that the gaps are everywhere and enormous, which would seem to lend support to you genetic thesis. I pointed out that the gaps are not enormous everywhere. The variability of the gap from place to place, and over time suggests that we’re not seeing a genetic phenomenon here.
In 2009, Oregon 8th graders had an average Math score of 290 for whites and 264 for blacks on the NAEP; a score difference of 26. http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/statecomparisons/withinyear.aspx?usrSelections=1,MAT,1,0,within,0,0
This seems about typical, although I suspect Oregon’s tiny (2%) proportion of black populace means it is not a typical state with a large populations of inner-city left-behind blacks (left-behind meaning not the share of the black population which has moved up and out).
We should also consider that all of these various test data do not include dropouts not in school–the very lowest tier for all populations–and since that dropout rate is much higher for blacks than asians and whites, any test score comparison minimizes differences since the lowest tier does not even get tested.
I still don’t see where you are coming up with that “standard deviation” idea. While I understand the general concept of a standard deviation, I don’t know how you can infer what it would be on this particular test. Regardless, what the data show across 100 % of our states is a consistent disparity and one that is stubbornly immutable and essentially unchanged in 20 years.
I hope your optimism is well-founded. I’ve been reading about such positive spins since I became involved in education back in the early 80s. I find myself less optimistic than the spinners, and I’ve seen a lot of various efforts come and go without any real or persistent success.
On the LSAT, which ranges from 120-180, I think, a Standard Deviation for blacks is about 9. See Table 6 here.
This means the black score on an LSAT is just over 1 SD from a white score (remember, these would be students already selected for ability and taking similar pre-Law educational curricula). The gap is even wider on MCATs.
It’s editorializing, I guess, to call this “enormous” although it is certainly a consistent gap of at least that size across most major academic testing of which I am aware. It is certainly not a trivial difference given the similarity in opportunity and exposure to the foundational material.
264:290 = 91:100. The gap your camp repeatedly claims is 85:100.
No positive spin. In fact, I put a negative spin on the whole situation. Clearly and obviously. When I say, "this isn’t going to happen, " and “nothing the government can do will make much difference” that’s not the voice of optimism.
I could point out, as is common in these parts, that reading comprehension is your friend. But you comprehend perfectly well, you just choose not too.
I pointed out that you repeatedly overstate your case. You also ignore data that disagrees with your thesis.
Metaphorically speaking, you’re in love with the sound of your own voice.
Your fundamental argument is that the gap is genetic. I referenced standardized tests given to school kids.
Tests given to college educated adults for competitive admission to professional school are much more subject to environmental factors. Acculturation, preparation, psychological issues, previous educational environment, etc.
You cite the LSATs and MCATs because they seem to support your argument better, not because they’re a better measure of the genetic component of IQ.
It’s quite clear that the gap is less than one SD, and could be as small as half a SD. No one’s arguing that the gap is trivial. Just that it hasn’t been proven that it’s genetic, and is not likely to be proven so any time soon.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/education/15educ.html?_r=1
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pdf/studies/2009495.pdf
You called me a racist and then don’t understand why I got upset–thus confirming my opinion of you as a fucking idiot.
I haven’t started a single thread on this subject, and I haven’t even been a major participant in any of them (only a minor one).
First, I do strongly suspect you of science snobbery. Second, I’m not sure “convinced” is the right word when dealing with a person’s reactions to scientific topics–see my IMHO thread for more on my opinion of this particular topic.
I think it’s for the same reason there’s no legion of doctors attempting to nail dow n the question of whether or not eating rhutabagas increases the risk of any cancers or lowers the risk of heart disease or both or neither–there’s just not a real pressing need to know the answer and no big political lobby behind one answer or the other. Contrast this with anthropogenic global warming, which has a huge political lobby designed to reach a certain conclusion.
Oh, and CP, the gap is clearly not immutable.
Perhaps you mean “ineradicable”.
Which may be true in practice, at least in the near term future, because culturally isolated groups rarely change their customs and practices. Hereditary lower classes tend to remain hereditary lower classes.
So far, the gap has continued to exist.
This makes its existence immutable (until such time as it goes away, but so far, the existence of that gap among various populations is, indeed, immutable).
When the gap goes away and its existence changes to non-existence, let me know.
I’m less inclined to quibble about word usage than I am inclined to address more substantive points, but I guess this is the pit, so have it if you don’t have any real data.
**States with no gaps: **
None
Countries with no gaps:
None
There aren’t large populations of black Americans anywhere but the US. So no, the gap doesn’t exist anywhere else.
African immigrants to the US don’t show the gap. So again, no.
We’re in Alice in Wonderland territory now. You’re the Red Queen. Feel free to devise all the imaginary categories you like.
The test gap mutates on a regular basis.
I don’t know why anyone would assume that the child of parents with $100,000 income is well-nourished. They survive on chips, cokes, snacks, pizza, starch and fat sandwiches.
Doctors are notorious for not being well-schooled in nutrition – especially the older ones. That’s why we have so many nutritionists now. Listen to them, not to doctors.
Rune, it’s time we had it out! Your mother is a Swede and your father is a farmer from Jutland. Need I say more?
There. I’ve done my worst.
I already posted in GD (which your Nazi-loving ass seemed to have merrily skipped over.) This is the Pit, where I can call you the racist troll you are.
It wasn’t a counter-argument. I made *that *in GD, by referencing how your beloved IQatWoN has no statistical basis and is, in fact, just made-up and manipulated data.
Here, I just want people to see what kind of person you are, based on the kind of research you support. Research by an institution founded by racists and eugenicists to support their racist, genocidal agenda. An organisation that funded actual, honest-to-God Jew-vivisecting Nazis after WWII and continues to this day to fund outright racists like Jared Taylor.
Which, in my book, makes you at best a racist apologist. But I’m not feeling very charitable. As far as I can tell by your posts, you’re not even ashamed of the association, so I’m guessing full-on racist.
You’ve supposedly referenced being a medic, and you believe people with real allergies are Munchausening it. That spells “shitty doctor” to me. Couple that with the racism and shallow grasp of population genetics, and it spells “quack I’d stay as far away as possible from”
Wait - so you’re not even a doctor, you just sell medical supplies?