Approximately how many times does a kid have to recite a meaningless oath before it teaches him to love America?
I guess it’s the whole notion of civil disobedience in elementary school that troubles me. I think for kids that age, the parents would have been better advised to try to resolve the situation in the school through dialogue, and to find the kid a different forum for his views that’s less disruptive to the classroom than telling his teacher to jump off a bridge. Note too that going the dialogue route might have resulted in the school dissuading the substitute from doing the Pledge, which further reduces disruption to class time.
I kinda sorta agree, I was more into the “My Dad can beat up your Dad” discussion group at ten. 
I think that, if the parents knew about this ahead of time, they did have a responsibility to sit down and talk with him about the possible consequences (I don’t know if they did or not, from what’s reported). But having been informed of the potential consequences, 10 is old enough that he could make his own decisions about whether he wanted to risk them.
Yes, he ended up disrupting the class and making a scene, but isn’t it possible that that was exactly what he wanted? He wanted to send out a message, and here it is on the national news. I’d say he succeeded. Would it have made the news if his parents just had a quiet discussion with the teacher?
I think school is actually a good place for civil disobedience and practicing citizenship because the consequences are minimal: an elementary school student doesn’t have a job to lose.
Why is the onus on the kid’s family to smooth out objections to his protest? He is clearly allowed to stay seated during the pledge if he chooses to. He was not doing anything wrong or anything that could be meaningfully characterized as disruptive. He wanted to make a statement quietly, and was doing so without a problem until the substitute made it into an issue. My experience in school is that older substitute teachers were the most likely to insist that everybody stand during the pledge, and no surprise, that’s what happened here.
I went through a rebellious phase at some point in school and refused to stand for various things, pledge, anthem, whatever. I wasn’t pulling a publicity stunt or being pushed into it by any grown up.
I see no reason to think this kid is being pushed into anything. He’s old enough to begin asking the big questions.
Thanks for your concern, I’m sure I won’t. And in return, I hope you manage to find your apostrophe key soon.
I meant to post earlier that I stopped standing for the pledge myself when I was around 13.
We showed our forth graders last year the SPLC documentary on the Birmingham Children’s March in Sunday School.
I don’t think that the parents are going to be able to resolve the issue of marriage equality via discussion with the school.
My sister organized an anti-seal hunt rally when she turned ten, in lieu of her tenth birthday party. I can assure you that in no way did any adult push her into it. Kids can and do stand up for things they believe in.
I’m sure my parents would have preferred throwing a plain old birthday party.
I have a tendency to agree with this poster. Ten year olds probably aren’t Lisa Simpson who always stands up for “the cause”
But I suppose it could happen
If this is the case, I still disagree. Now I am a gay man and I applaud those who stand up for their cause but fact is there is a time and a place for everything and this probably isn’t it.
The way to change a person’s opinion is not to back them against a wall, the way to do it is to change their views by educating them in why their logic is flawed.
Having respect for your country, which saying the pledge is, has nothing to do with gay right or any other rights.
To say you won’t respect your country because you disagree with policy isn’t a good lesson. I can respect and love my parents even though some of their beliefs they taught me were simply, at least in my opinion, wrong.
Here’s an example:
I live in Chicago and when GW Bush was president EVERY single Saturday we’d have protesters, protesting, blocking traffic, with signs saying “Bring the troops home NOW.” “Leave Iraq NOW.” I would look at their literature while I waited for the bus. They wanted the troops home ASAP
The first Saturday after Mr Obama was elected president these protested left, never to return. See my point.
These protesters didn’t care about Iraq, nor Iraq veterans nor anything else. If they did they’d still be out there protesting to get the troops home. They were simply using Iraq as a political means to discredit GW Bush and the Republicans.
Whether you agree or disagree with this, the fact is the troops are STILL in Iraq. How can you say, they must be removed ASAP then when the next guy comes in, it’s OK to leave them there? It makes no sense and it’s using a cause to promote a seperate agenda.
It seems like “not saying the pledge” is the cause and they are using gay rights as a cover for their real agenda which is not to say the pledge.
The same way those protesters were using the Iraq war as a cover to discredit GW Bush and the Republicans.
You lose credibility when you do that.
I see it rather as the parents trying to resolve conflict that interferes with the use of their child’s class time for class work, by getting rid of the Pledge and any resulting protests. If they forgo the option that is more likely to keep the kid from having to recite the Pledge (parental dialogue with the teacher and the school) in favor of the option that is less likely to do that but which makes a louder public statement (civil disobedience by the kid), that’s their prerogative, that makes it seem like the spectacle is the primary goal.
Also, the fact that the kid could not remain civil but instead mouthed off to his teacher suggests to me that maybe he’s still a bit young for this particular form of political activity, and that it’s not a kindness to leave him in that situation.
Agreed, but I don’t think that telling his teacher to jump off a bridge is going to soften many otherwise hard hearts either. If the parents want to find an effective and pedagogically sound way for this ten-year-old to express his political convictions, I think they could help him find better alternatives than this protest.
Forgive my foreign ignorance, but are you seriously saying that in your famously “free” country, people who don’t want to say the pledge are forced to do so or punished for not doing so with such severity that at the age of ten, in the face of being called a “gaywad” by his peers, a child would *hide *behind demanding gay rights?!
So rather than loving their country by engaging in introspection about the nature of liberty in said country and the lack of justice in said country and embracing their right as citizens of said country to be free from coercion and forced recitation of loyalty oaths, you’d rather that they pay lipservice to lies by mumbling bullshit about flags. That’s… the laziest possible form of patriotism I can imagine.
No, wait, the laziest form of patriotism imaginable are those flags people clipped their car windows after 9/11.
This runs second.
It’s not about influencing public policy, it’s about not having to pointlessly say something that he doesn’t believe.
Children in schools cannot be compelled to recite the pledge for any reason, anyway. This kid? Has an actual reason to not want to, other than finding it boring or stupid or pointless. How can that possibly be wrong?
Ouch!!!
Great way to teach them to “love America,” by telling them not to excerise their rights, eh? :rolleyes:
Saying a pledge isn’t going to teach them to love their country – teaching them about WHY we’re supposed to love America, and the freedoms we have here, are the way to go about it.
(Am I the only one who basically used to just recite the Pledge by rote, without really thinking about it? Not on purpose, mind you, but just because if you say it day in and day out, it becomes such a habit, you start saying it without thinking about it.)
It’s indoctrination, to teach them at an early age to love country and Jesus.
But hell, I’m probably liberal because my Father was.
Same here. 
My first political impression was booing Ronald Reagan when he’d make his televised speeches. (Although THAT was more because he always did it during TV shows I was watching, dammit!!! I wanted to watch The Muppets!!!)
I’ve never forgiven Reagen for being shot while I was trying to watch Scooby Doo.