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*Originally posted by matt_mcl *
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Nope. To take them to task for not thinking clearly. You’ve failed to read my posts carefully, and completely missed my point, if you think I’d try to convince someone to have a child they don’t want. I’ll gladly chew on someone for making such an basic decision based upon poor thinking, however. Same as I’d chew on anyone for making any life changing decision without careful thought.
Interesting thought, featherlou. I dunno, but I’m thinking that if more people thought about the consequences of being a parent, and I mean carefully and with full reflection, we’d be in a better world. I’m not sure we’d have a smaller population (although likely so), but we’d certainly have a bunch of better prepaired of parents out there, and that would mean fewer unhappy, abused, and neglected children.
Y’all, please don’t get me wrong: I’d chew on a prospective parent for poor reasoning more quickly then I’d pounce on anyone else. Parenthood is irreversable, while being childless is (mostly) not. Once someone has become a parent, they will never again be not a parent. However, once the irrevocable condition of parenthood has become a fact, it’s mostly too late to chew on them for doing something thoughtless. I spent a number of years as a Naval Recruiter, and even more as an Petty Officer. I daily saw the consequences of poorly thought-out decisions, and frankly, it both pisses me off, and makes me sad.
Again, if you don’t offer to discuss the subject with me, I’ll not inquire, but if you broach the subject, I’ll feel invited to discuss it.
For 37 years I enjoyed the single life and didn’t need to get married but suddenly found the right woman and am now quite happy. I wasn’t sure if I’d make a good Dad just because I kinda enjoy my time and pursuing my interests but knew my wife would like some so we started trying a year ago. Once. Boom. Nine months later a perfect little daughter was born.
Now I really wonder what I ever laughed about before. She’s the most adorable, cute, happy, healthy, needy little poop maker I could ever imagine and I rush home every day just to see her and her mommy.
Not everybody’s going to feel that way and that’s perfectly okay. I understand the desire to stay childless perfectly well, I just hope they also understand why I’m so enamored with my baby.
If by ‘normal’ you mean ‘natural’ (and it seems you do) society does not in any way reflect ‘normal.’ Dentistry is not ‘normal’. Automobiles are not ‘normal’. We are gifted with these big brains, and have the option of deciding not to subject ourselves to biology, which could mean getting a polio vaccine, typing on a computer, or foregoing parenthood. The urge to nurture can be as easily re-channeled into other avenues as the aggressive urge, which is ‘normal’ but not acted upon in the way our caveman ancestors acted on it. But, various cultures have varying viewpoints on appropriate reproducin’, which tends to be compounded by education level. This is a whole other topic, though.
Fair enough; I am happy to hear that you would hold prospective parents to the same standard of thinking-through-fulness… I am just concerned because (as I mentioned) many parents seem to stumble into the role (accidental pregnancy) and then just run with it. And (as you mentioned) once you become a parent, you can’t undo it. Not that I expect you to do something about it, it’s sort of a general concern. 
The problem I have when parents say ‘I never wanted to be a parent, then I (found the right whoever) and decided to go for it, and every thing came up roses afterwards…’ is not that I begrudge them their happiness; in fact I am thrilled that they had things turn out so well. It’s the ones that don’t post who feel like they took the same chance, then after the first blush of wonderfulness faded, they realized they’d made a huge mistake. Those parents hardly ever say a word, because society doesn’t treat people that don’t like children (especially their own) very kindly. So they grimly plow on.
Some of them do better than others, but I always wonder how many of them would have forgone parenthood if it was more socially acceptible. If their decision to be childless didn’t subject them to familial (and from co-workers, strangers, etc) interrogation and endless questioning of their decision, or stories that seem to attempt to invalidate the reasons offered, e.g. ‘well, I was childless too, but I changed my mind!’ or ‘I never got stretchmarks!’ etc. Because that’s what it feels like sometimes, even though you (general you) may not mean it that way. I mean, at what point do you let the childless just live with their decision without questioning the reasoning? Once someone becomes a parent, as you said it’s too late to scrutinize their decision to parent. At what point to the childless get a break from the scrutiny?
Again, not sure I agree. If you replace ‘kids’ with ‘dogs’ or ‘dirt bikes’ or ‘stamp collecting’ or ‘dressing up like klingon Elvis and going to sci-fi conventions’ then you’ll see what I’m getting at. I think we agree more than disagree, though, we just have very different perspectives, obviously. 
I truly, deeply appreciate it. For my part, I want to leave this world a better place for her and the rest of the sproggen, and I will try my best to do so.
Nobody has a problem with that; it’s your job to be enamored with your baby. The problem is when you expect everyone else to be.
Tranquillis writes, <<I would hope so, too, but the biological fact is that humans are designed to reproduce, and will do so. >>
The current medical definition of infertility refers to a couple. If a couple tries for two years without any contraception, to conceive, and cannot, they are considered to be eligible for fertility treatments. This is about 10% of all couples. And that’s now, with good nutrition and basic health.
Saying that people are “designed” to reproduce ignores the fact that in the past, many people who were celibate, infertile, or married to someone who was infertile have not had children. Society as a whole has had lots of childless people; we just don’t notice it because none of them became our ancestors.
My best explanation of my desire for children is this. Right now, I have about 40% of the drive, patience, time, and maternal instinct necessary to raise a child. I could either do a less than half-assed job of raising my own kid, or spend that time with a friend or relative’s child who wasn’t getting a full 100% from their parents. So until that changes, I don’t have kids. I know myself well enough to know that’ll change, and I trust other people enough to know when they won’t.
Makes sense to me, at least.
Corr
No, it means different from the ususal. In this society, and in every other one I know of, it is usual for mated pairs and some singles to have children. Biology pretty much ensures that, but I’ll bet, if anyone can find an example, that any society that doesn’t have parenthood as the norm quickly is subsumed or over-run by societies where parenthood is the norm.
Face it, people are thoughtless, and most will assume that if you’re different from the norm, that someting is wrong with you. A truly civilized (by my lights) society wouldn’t go beyond this:
Q: Do you have children?
A: No.
Q: Oh. So, how about the Orioles game last night?
Unfortunately, when you’re talking about something as powerful and basic as parenthood, it tends to color your whole world-view. I frequently refer to my daughter as “my favorite obsession”, and I know (intellectually) how timesome that can be to people whom don’t share a similar obsession. I try to keep my enthusiasm in check, but sometimes fail. Others are less thoughtful. You may want to consider parenthood as the world’s most universal religion, and there are many, many, evangelists for it out there.
Yes, they do. Often past the point of all reason. There are other choices out there, from support groups and family counselling, to adoption and foster care. Few alternative choices are properly supported in this country, but if you look (if you’ve got the energy to look), there are choices. My time in the Nav made me passionate about daycare, my time as a recruiter made me passionate about family planning and education. These, too, are neglected in our society, and that’s a crime and a crying shame.
Corr, the basic human design is for reproduction. It sometimes doesn’t work due to biological issues, or a lack of opportunity, or is sidetracked by personal or societal choices, but that doesn’t change the fact that the human creature is designed to increase, and it does so. Now, just because we’re, as a species, designed to reproduce, it doesn’t mean that we must, or even should reproduce. That decision may be the ultimate test of our maturity as a species, or even of our right to survive as a species: Can we live within our resources?
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*Originally posted by Tranquilis *
kiz, you don’t “lose who you were”, you grow new aspects to your person. The old you is still there, but may no longer be recognizable due to all the new growth. That said, new growth isn’t always good, or desireable. Age is less important the desire and ability.
Ironic you should say that – my computer consultant toddler-mom friend mentioned something similar the other night when she had my SO and I over for dinner! She says that since Ben’s birth, she’s experienced facets of herself she was never aware of before having him, the most mind-boggling (to her) being that she actually has more of a maternal streak than she ever realized. She went on to explain that not only is pregnancy different for every woman (she had minimal labor pains, for example), but nobody can truly explain what it’s like being a mother – it MUST be experienced.
I know fear of the unknown plays a large part in my ambivilence. Another factor is that I have very little experience with babies and toddlers, in that I’ve never babysat, nor, as I’ve already said, do I have siblings. The times I’ve held babies, though have been wonderful after getting over the initial fear that I’ll either drop him/her or hold him/her incorrectly – sheesh, I sing and coo with the rest of 'em!
I dunno…I’ve read through this entire thread and, if anything, my mind’s reeling!
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*Originally posted by Lionors *
Their constant drooling grosses me out immensely, they always smell of crap or sour milk, their screams affect me like fingernails going down a chalkboard and the mere thought of changing a diaper (which I have yet to ever learn how to do or want to do) makes me literally cringe.
I hear you, Lionors – babies scare me to death for all the reasons you’ve mentioned. I’m terrifed at the thought of changing a diaper, and seeing drooling, smelly babies makes me cringe too. What fascinates me, though, is watching an infant gaze at the world around him/her. It always makes me wonder why they don’t blink. Well, I suppose I wouldn’t, too, being exposed to all the new sights and sounds and people and animals…
This entire thread reminds me of the time when, as a girl, I thought it’d be OK to have a baby and send it away until him/her reached the age of 3 or 4, then they’d return to my custody…
[total nitpick]Actually, a couple is medically defined as infertile if they have failed to conceive after one year of optimally scheduled intercourse (that is, every 2-3 days). This comprises 15% of couples.
It is true that they are usually encouraged to try again for another year, as a few (1/3 sounds about right) will conceive on their own eventually.
I went through the hell of an OB/GYN rotation to gain this knowledge, so I’m damn sure going to share it. [/total nitpick]
My GF and I (soon to be cohabitating and eventually to be married) have given this a lot of thought lately, and we are planning to be CBC. The fact is that neither of us has any desire whatsoever to have children, and we feel this is reason enough.
Dr. J
The thing that confuses me about this thread is that I have had umpty jillion people who had no problems telling me that I was immature or selfish for not wanting to have children. Where are they? Have none of them made it here? Or is there someone reading this thread and having to force themselves not to respond and say what they want to say, for fear of being flamed?
Here I am, a 33 year old guy just out of an ill-advised marriage. No kids. And I am still on the fence.
The current special lady in my life wants kids, indeed, she had a dream of us surrounded by 4 children.
I am thinking that kids would seriously cramp my style, and yet there is a part of me that is willing to give everything to a small life who will be entirely dependent upon me and my future bride.
I just don’t know. Most people make these decisions 10 years ago…
BTW, I think I prefer the term “child-free” instead of “child-less”. http://www.childfree.net
Phouchg
Lovable Rogue
Just another data point:
I’m 36 and have known all my life that I didn’t want kids. I hated baby dolls as a child (I’m female) and experienced the “you’ll change your mind when you get older” relatives (they always made me angry, even when I was 6, because I knew they were wrong.)
I would not make a good mother. I have zero maternal instinct, I don’t like babies, don’t like toddlers, and don’t like young children. They’re fine when they get to be about 8 or 9 (as long as they aren’t total brats). I joke that I would probably make a good father, and that’s probably true–what I find distasteful (just for me, of course) is the whole idea of being pregnant, being the nurturer, being the need-fulfiller and the “mommy.” That’s just not me. I don’t have a lot in common with most women, and the ones I’m friends with tend to be “tomboys” like me who are more interested in computers and motorcycles and swords than in babies. I don’t want to get typecast in the “mommy” role. Besides that, as others have mentioned, I just can’t deal with dirty diapers, screaming kids, messy faces, and utter chaos. My cats provide just enough chaos in my life to make me happy.
Interestingly, I haven’t gotten much of the “why don’t you have kids” line. My parents, who were about the only ones who believed me, are fine with it–especially my mom. Da spouse’s parents have the good sense to keep their mouths shut about it even though I know they’re bewildered by our choice. Fortunately he has 3 siblings with 9 kids between them, so the question of grandchildren isn’t an issue either.
I think the reason why most people are either supportive or silent about our decision is because we’re so certain of it. We don’t waver because we know. And if childfreeness is selfish, then so be it. We don’t owe anyone else this kind of commitment, and we certainly don’t owe some poor child a life where it would be resented. That’s not fair to anybody. But then, I don’t consider “selfish” to necessarily be a bad term.
I applaud those who have kids and raise them right–it’s always a joy to meet a polite, considerate child. I’m glad there are folks who want (and love) to do this. They make better parents than I ever would.
A good point, Legomancer. I’ve been wondering the same thing myself, not because I wish to argue, but because it’d be interesting to discover WHY they think we’re “selfish” for not wanting or ambivilent about having children.
You make an excellent point re The Fear Of Flaming, though!
Tranquilis:
How about “I don’t want to stop having fun on my own terms”? Sure, I could probably have some fun with a child, but according to my calculations, not nearly as much fun as I could have without one.
I want to be able to watch, play, read, or listen to anything I want without worrying having to worry about inadvertently exposing a kid to inappropriate material. I want to be able to construct cool machines at my convienience without frequent interruption and enjoy them whenever I feel like it. Don’t ask me why, but somehow the thought of having to let the robot of unimaginable power I worked on for months collect dust because for sone reason I had to be there for my child just isn’t very pleasant to me. To put it simply, I want my free time to be mine. Do I not know how th have fun because my preffered means of having fun isn’t exactly family entertainment?
If we did that, there would be about 75% less babies.