All right, let’s assume for a moment that this is a literally true statement (I don’t buy it, but I’ll go along for the sake of argument). Are you likewise contending that in each and every one of those cases, the parents involved took no action to curb their child’s behavior? If not, if the parents were in at least some of those cases making a good faith effort to deal with the situation, what would you have them do? As I said before, kids aren’t something you can just switch off or take the batteries out of. Unless you’ve perfected some sort of mind-control technique the rest of us should know about, you’re going to have to accept that sometimes kids are going to do annoying things that most adults wouldn’t, and make the best of it. In most cases, the parents are just as annoyed as you are if not more, with a health dose of embarassment and stress over the reactions of the other passengers on top of it. Dirty looks and snide comments don’t help; if anything, they’re counter-productive. That’s the point I’m trying to make sure people understand; if the parents are doing nothing, then a polite request that they attend to their kids is completely justified. If they’re trying, then either do your best to ignore the situation or do something to help. Give the parents a lump of coal for the kid’s stocking ;-). But for God’s sake don’t make their job even harder.
I agree that that’s not a practical solution in most cases; I don’t think, however, that the intent was to deny parental responsibility, but to suggest that there may be ways to avoid the specific problem. You seem as eager to think the worst of other posters as to do so of the parents of all these kids who live only to torment you at 30,000 feet.
If I had the option of selecting seats so as to avoid people who hate kids, believe me I’d do so. Unfortunately, I’m not able to do that any more than I’m able to avoid people who recline their seats into my sternum. If an airline offered a seating section that offered a modicum of isolation from other travelers and provision for my children to travel in greater safety and comfort, relieving me of at least some of the concern over how my children’s behavior will affect others, I’d jump at it and perhaps even be willing to pay more for it. Given the degree of concern exhibited by most American airlines for the comfort and sanity of their passengers, I’m not holding my breath.
If you read the entire post, you’ll also note that very clear directions were provided on how to COMMUNICATE. Sounds like the OP had no interest in addressing the parent. If you’re going to sit there and fume in silence, then move to the back of the plane and quit complaining. Granted, there was sarcasm implied, but the advice still works.
Yes, of course it’s the parent’s responsibility, but if they’re lax, and you don’t speak up, you’ve got no one but yourself to blame. If you complain, and they ignore you, then you’ve got every right to be mighty pissed. No ones asking anyone to like their kids, but they’ve got just as much a right to be on the plane as anyone else.
Tolerance and communication “over the top”???
Yeah, right.
I think most people here know my view on children (I’m agnostic but prefer them to be at least 22 before I have to deal with them). I have no problem with adults bringing their children on flights with them.
I am pretty tolerant of the fact that children are going to ocassionally act up. They might be loud, they might kick seats, etc. They are children, that is what they will.
In fact, I find that children are usually better behaved than general on airplanes. Most of them are so overawed by the experience that they don’t do much.
In fact, I have even been to known to attempt conversation with a child in my row to give mom/dad a moment of peace (and if you know my attitudes about talking to strangers you know what a sacrifce that is for me).
However, I am completely amazed by the number of parents out there that will make **absolutely no attempt WHATSOEVER ** to control their children. These are the people who should be seated on the wing.
Let me emphasize, these are anomolies, but there are so many people flying these days that the odds of encountering one is increasing.
-The time I told a mother that her kid was kicking my seat and she said “So?”
-The time a toddler was turned loose on the airplane. Allowed to run up and down the aisles. One of of these trips the flight attend from first class came back with him and asked the cabin “Whose child is this” and the parent didn’t claim him. The flight crew repeatedly asked the father to keep the child in its seat and it never happened.
-The time I saw a kid who kept throwing his toy over the seat in front of him. Right onto the computer of the woman in the next row. The first couple of times the woman just handed the toy back. The next few times she kept it until the mother asked for it back. Finally the woman just lied and said she couldn’t see it. That toy must have gone over that chair 20 times before that point.
Now, how do you deal with this? You don’t, you are traveling with other people. You just have to accept that not everybody is polite and cope the best you can. Complain to the crew but understand that every problem with not be resolved and at least you will get a Pit Bitch out of it.
Putting all the children in one part of the plane is not the solution. What happens when you put children in a confined area? They play. Play gets louder. They get harder to control.
Just remember it isn’t about you. It is not meant as a personal insult so just try to take it as a fact of life.
Now, how about those people that seem to suffer from Flight-Induced Flatulence (FIF)?
From my experience flying with kids, the rear of the plane is far from the worst place to be. Granted, the engine noise on aircraft with tail-mounted engines is worse, the ride isn’t as smooth as it is from the wings forward, etc., but there are advantages. It’s usually the first part of the plane to board, so you have a bit more time to get everything situated and there’s almost no one else on the plane at that point, so there are fewer obstacles to negotiate. You generally don’t hold up other passengers from boarding while you secure the car seats. The engine noise does help cover up the more innocuous outbursts, and the high volume of white noise tends to help keep the kids from startling at other noises once they go to sleep. Once you land, you’re once again not typically holding up other passengers from deplaning. You also tend to be close to the flight attendants’ station, so in their off minutes they can play with and talk to the kids if they’re inclined to (many are). Best of all, the ears of most other passengers are directed forward away from the kids, so they’re less likely to hear what few indiscretions my kids commit. The two next best locations are also the ones every other seasoned traveler goes for: the row behind the exit row, and the bulkhead seats. In both cases, there tends to be a bit more room to maneuver, which helps in getting the car seat in, and there’s also less chance of kid kicking or hitting the seat in front of them.
I have more patience about children on airplanes then most other places for two reasons:
There really isnt any clear alternitive. You don’t have to take your child to a three-star resterant, or a movie theratre. Sometimes you have to fly.
And, as a corollary to that,
2)Most of the parents of small children that I know do not fly casually. The money isn’t there. On a plane there is a higher than average possiblility that the reason that some one is paying for four seats instead of driving is that they gotta make it in time for Mom’s funneral, or because Dad is near the end. Obviously, this isn’t true in all, or even most, cases, but I suspect it is true more often on an airplane than at a resterant. And I know that in such a situation I might be a little more lax in my childcare, and my (hypotheical) kids a little more wound up. I also suspect I would be less empathic towards my fellow passenger’s discomfort.
Well, I said that for every asshole adult story, I could tell two about children that made the plane trip miserable. Not mentioned are the great many times that children did not cause a problem.
However, I have found one thing to be true - children I encounter on aircraft are divided into two categories:
Good kids, who are polite, quiet, sleep, or act like “little adults” (the good kind of adult)
Bad kids, who can never be brought under control by their parents.
It is very uncommon to see a child act up, who is brought under control by his parents. They seem to be a binary state device - good, or bad.
A good faith effort is admirable, but still mostly ineffectual.
OK, I see what is happening here. Let me tell you how I act on a plane (and hey, rundogrun, listen up):
I work my ass off, and when I’m on a flight I’m either at the end of a long day, or starting out on one. I don’t like flying. I’ve had to do it hundreds of times, but I still don’t like it. I want to be left the fuck alone. I am quiet. I sit, sip my drink, and try to read or sleep to remove anxiety. I’m also physically ill a lot, and suffer from terrible headaches on flights more than 2 hours.
(note - in the following rant, all of the mentioned events have happened to me)
I do not need your child putting slobbery toys in my lap. I do not need your child kicking the back of my seat. I do not need to actually be hit in the face, driving my glasses into my skin, by a child trying to fight with his brother in the seat behind. I do not want to be woken up to be told an innane story about 101 Dalmatians. Not only that, but how dare these people try to shift the responsibility for their children mis-behaving on me? By saying I need to be the one to complain about it, rather than the parent being proactive and showing me some basic fucking human courtesy?
And how do you complain? Many times, these frustrated angry parents would rather shoot you in the head than hear you politely say “Excuse me, but your child keeps throwing up on my laptop. Can you ask him to stop?”
You see, some (not even most, but some) parents just don’t get it. I have complained to them. They are either 100% ineffectual, or they get angry. I have even been threatened and have been told to “keep (your) damn mouth shut”. If I complain to the flight attendant, I get reactions ranging from from mockery to a polite warning to the parent, at best. And then, from what has been posted in this thread, I guess I should expect just an escalation of the behavior, because as was posted earlier, “Ride me, and I may decide you ought to get a taste of what they can really do.” Which implies, of course, that the child’s behavior is in fact under the control of the parent, and that the parent is giving tacit approval to the child.
This quote bothers me as well: “Your snide looks and comments aren’t going to do anything but ratchet my anxiety up another couple of notches, and that’s almost certainly going to be picked up on by my kids and make it even more difficult to restore order.” This actually sounds pretty bad out of context, and makes it sound like your children have a serious Oppositional-Defiant Disorder. This was also the first time of two that the phrase “snide” was used to describe looks and comments. I’m guessing that you have unfortunately seen these looks and heard these comments a few times. And it is rude to complain rudely, I agree.
For the record. I have also held the hand of a little girl for two hours who was scared on a flight. I have read a story to a little boy and his sister who were alone on a plane. I have carried on a conversation about a dragon with another girl for nearly an hour, and made up an impromptu story about the dragon. That had her laughing in delight. These facts will be ignored as this debate goes on, most likely. I like children if 1) I am not sick, and 2) they are good kids. Plain and simple. So don’t fucking try to paint me as a “typical child-hating business traveller”.
No, the quote to “go to the back of the plane” (paraphrased) is meant purely to be a dismissive one of contempt. If a child is kicking your seat, and you don’t like it, and nothing can stop him - then obviously YOU are the one at fault. Get to the back of the plane, and shut your hole.
Look people. This shit isn’t hard. This is not the Scope’s Monkey Trial here. This should be taught on Blue’s Clues. I do not advocate children being confined to certain areas. I do not advocate restricting children on planes, or making life for parents any harder. I feel bad that Delta often does not allow seating for parents of small children first. But by Goddess, there need to be some real penalties for what simply amounts to torture of an individual or individuals by children, and their uncaring, assholic, boorish parents.
Clear, true, but also very sarcastic and self-righteous directions.
That statement is just as silly as if I said to you “Hey! Can’t control your kids? Have troubles with the higher brain functions of courtesy and politeness? Not used to having your family behave in public? Then get off the plane and enroll in counseling.” See? Good advice, perhaps, but it sure sounds mean and sarcastic.
No, stop right there. Why am I to blame? Your child is the one kicking the back of my seat, and your reaction is “hey, if they don’t complain, it’s their fault?” In blaming the victim like this you sure give parenting a bad name. Let’s use a bit of hyperbole - what other things can you think of are also the victim’s fault, if she does not report it? Hmmmmm?
No, they do not have that right. A disruptive passenger does NOT have any right whatsoever to be on a plane. Regardless of whether they are a 40-year old drunk accountant, or a 5-year old kicking the hell out of people’s seats, and hitting them in the face.
“Politeness and courtesy”, “taking responsibility for the actions of your children”, “being a proactive, caring parent who wants to teach their children how to function in society”. Think about it.
There is always the option of putting the child over your knee and giving it a spanking. These days you’d probably get sued, but then again If the parents don’t have the balls to stand up to a 5 year old brat they probably don’t have the balls to stand up to a pissed off adult.
I remember being seated next to a kid who was all by himself. Not more than 8. The woman sitting next to him was almost drafted to be his “mom”. He counted loudly on the takeoff and landing. He was constantly bored and would yell loudly. “ONE! TWO! THREE! FOUR!” etc.
When I flew, and still fly, I am always on my best behaviour. My bro and I were too fascinated by watching the plane take off and fly to annoy people. Couple that with the infinite creativity of my parents, and we were very good children. It was that or my dad would threaten to turn the plane around and take us right back home.
I thank my parents for this lesson in air ettiquette.
I realize it may seem that way; anyone who has kids will tell you that even the best-behaved of them will occasionally and completely unexpectedly do wildly inappropriate and disruptive things. If you aren’t noticing it from the “good kids”, it’s because the parents are taking action immediately to curb the behavior. My son’s behavior, on airplanes and in most other public situations, is extremely good an overwhelming percentage of the time. Every once in a great while, however, he’ll do something neither my wife nor I can believe and that we could not possibly have anticipated. They aren’t binary state devices (we should be so lucky) – they’re little human beings who haven’t figured out how to behave all the time, who sometimes get tired and hungry and frustrated and angry and act out in inappropriate ways.
And where in anything I’ve said have I given the impression that I consider it your responsibility to complain before I take steps to deal with any untoward behavior by my kids? I’ve tried to make it clear that I do my best to prevent problems in the first place and to deal with any that do arise quickly and authoritatively. With the exception of my son kicking the seat in front of him once or twice (and I mean one or two times in all of the 25 or 30 flights he’s been on), my kids have never approached the levels of misbehavior you describe. I make every effort to schedule flights at times when the kids are either well-rested (usually short flights when we can expect to amuse them the entire time) or dead on their feet (so that they go to sleep and stay asleep as long as possible), and where possible on flights with plenty of empty seats. More often than not, other passengers around my family compliment my kids at the end of a trip on how well behaved they are. And you know what? I still get the evil eye from a significant number of other passengers before, during, and after flights in which my kids have been perfect angels, simply because I dared to contaminate their airplane with a child. It sounds like you and I and my kids would get along fine if we found ourselves next to each other on a flight, but you’re not the type of person my posts were complaining about; I’m fed up with those who believe that they have a divine right to go through life unsullied by the sight of children and who lose no time making that belief known to me when I stray into their path with my kids.
No, that’s not the implication, and I’d never have construed “Ride me” to mean complaining to the flight attendant about my kids’ behavior if it’s inappropriate. What I meant was that if I’m obviously doing everything I can think of to rectify the problem, you probably aren’t going to improve the situation by directing murderous looks and cutting comments my way. If anything, you’re only likely to make me less effective at dealing with the problem by distracting my attention and increasing my anxiety level. Enough of that, and I might decide it’s not worth struggling with the kid when the person who’s attacking me probably isn’t going to be satisfied until I flush myself and the kid down the lavatory toilet.
How much direct control do you have over the behavior of the adults around you? You can persuade, cajole, manipulate, coerce, threaten, etc., but ultimately you can’t compel behavior. Now imagine trying to control the behavior of someone whose brain hasn’t fully developed a lot of the structures that inhibit inappropriate actions and who hasn’t entirely learned which behaviors are acceptable and which aren’t. My wife and I do a damned good job of influencing and directing our kids’ actions, but neither of us would ever claim to be able to control it in every situation.
No, it makes it sound like I’m less effective as a parent when my attention is diverted by someone two rows away loudly suggesting to their seatmates that people who can’t control their children ought not to be allowed to keep them, as my tired and hungry two year old son loudly insists that he wants more Goldfish crackers, our supply having been exhausted some minutes previously. First time his voice had been raised the whole trip. Also, you might ask parents among your acquaintance whether their children are able to detect when the parents are upset or anxious about something, and what effect it has on their behavior if they can. Should I be able to do a better job of maintaining my composure and not becoming anxious? Sure. That’s one of my personality flaws – I do get flustered easily when in a public situation and my conduct or that of those for whom I’m responsible is called into question. I go to great lengths to avoid such situations, but sometimes it happens and I don’t deal with as well as I might. When that occurs, it sometimes has a deleterious effect on my kids’ behavior.
Thanks. I have heard and seen them more than a few times. But most of the time, it wasn’t because my kids were acting up; I get the looks and comments as soon as some people detect that there’s a kid on the same plane. The same attitude seemed to me to prevade the OP, which is why I’ve objected so strongly to tarring every parent and kid with the same brush.
I haven’t, with one possible exception that I’ll deal with presently. I have tried to point out that many airline passengers, business travelers or vacationers or whatever, do assume that my children are going to “ruin” their flight by their mere presence and let their displeasure at this manifest itself in rude, callous, and at times cruel behavior.
I should know better than to defend someone else’s post. I was merely trying to suggest that rundogrun’s post admitted of more than one interpretation. I tried, but apparently failed, to concede that it was not a particularly productive suggestion in most circumstances. And then I promptly got caught up in the heat of the moment and allowed my annoyance at the OP (which is what rundogrun was addressing, not any comment of yours) to color my response to you. In retrospect, I do think that the sarcasm (if so it was) of rundogrun’s comments was fair given the tone of the OP and of a subsequent post by the same person, but I can see on rereading the whole thread why you’d have reacted as you did, and I retract the last sentence of the paragraph quoted above.
I have read your entire response, rackensack, and have concluded that there is not enough difference between us to have me continue to post angry-sounding responses that spread bad feelings here. It’s obvious that we both have strong feelings about this, but at heart our feelings and beliefs are similar. Therefore, I cannot really respond in any way other than to say in general it appears that we agree.
It was a really good dragon story I told the girl. Wish I had written it down to share. Maybe it could constructively help other parents out there.
Just gotta nose in here and say how much I’ve been enjoying and nodding my head at rackensack’s posts. Beautifully phrased, and magnificently even-tempered.
(So, wolfman, after you’ve beaten this strange kid on an airplane, what next? Are you under the impression he’ll now sit quietly for you for the duration of the trip? Or just cower in mute fear?)
And, FTR, my previous posts were all based on the tone set by the OP.
Let me reemphasize once again…it’s the parents responsibility to keep their kids under control. My “if you don’t speak up, you have no one else to blame” comment was completely misworded. Of course you have the parent to blame. And, in a perfect world, everybody would take full responsibility and be completely aware of what’s going on around them. But it’s not a perfect world. I wouldn’t suffer in silence, but if you don’t speak up, then you need to accept responsibility for your silence.
As to the OP, again my attitude that has been prevalent throughout this thread remains the same…
If you are going to treat me and my family as second class citizens because we have kids, then fuck you. We are not extras in your life’s movie.
Pal, you touch my daughter to so much as wipe your own froth off of her, you’ll find yourself in so much hurt that you’ll think you’re passing a kidney stone through your lower back. The average adult has an attention span of about 10 or 15 minutes. Why do you expect more from children?
Personal story: I’m often criticized by people for being too strict with my daughter, but she is well-behaved. Despite that, she’s not quite six and she does have her moments, but they’re few; at those times I do my best to rein her in but she’s a kid and it doesn’t always work. 2 Xmases ago we were flying out of Charlotte. American ran out of deicer, and we got the last 3 seats on a TWA plane to Chicago (gee, and they were 1st Class–that didn’t suck), then transferred to Delta 2 hours later, only to transfer back to TWA in St. Louis. Despite the fact that I couldn’t get a nicotine fix to save my life between Charlotte and St. Louis, both my wife and I kept our daughter–4 years old and in first class–entertained and relatively quiet (much quieter than the drunken asshole who was trying to sell Amway distributorships or something to the other passengers). However, when we got to St. Louis, the flight attendants had gone on sick-out. We were stuck at the gate for 4 hours (there’s another long story about me getting off and reboarding the plane a few times for smoke breaks–St. Louis is an enlightened airport and has ventilated, closed off rooms for smokers), ended up cleaning out the free 1st Class drink cart on our own, and struck up a few conversations.
By this time, though, about 12 hours on planes or in airports, my daughter was thoroughly fed up and had doubts about Santa finding her in the airport. My wife and I were also out of patience (think about it: the single business travellers are the ones I see bitching at the gate clerk the most often; imagine all your BS with a wife and a child going at it too). Fortunately, there was a young lady, about 19, who had also been upgraded to 1st, who brought Hannah over to color with her. She turned to me and told me that she had younger siblings and knew that something or someone new would probably renew the attention span.
Next time you child-haters fly, keep in mind that you’re adults and that you have some self-control–some of you, anyhow–but that kids are just as frustrated or more frustrated than you are. If anything, admire them for saying and doing what you wish you could say or do. Or invite them over to color–you might make a friend, or several.
I must stick my nose in here and say that I think you are way off with this statement. The children you are seeing as “good” are almost assuredly not behaving this way entirely on their own, especially on a long, crowded flight.
We don’t fly very often, as tickets for 6 tend to add up. But last spring we took a real vacation and flew from Boston to San Francisco to visit family. The kids (2,5,7,and 10) were prepared for what they might experience and what our expectations were for their behavior. I was also ready with a bag full of new toys/books/puzzles to keep them amused. Even so, by the time we landed, my husband and I were exhausted. We spent the entire time anticipating the moment when one child might be getting antsy, when another needed to switch seats or be distracted. It is a subtle but immensely difficult dance, specifically designed to be unobtrusive. If you aren’t noticing, than the parents are just doing a really good job.
Our flights went quite well. The only unpleasant moment came when I insisted on strapping the 2 year old into her seat while we went through some turbulence. (This, statistically, is the time when most injuries occur.) She was tired and wanted to be held, and did indeed fuss for the entire 20 minutes that the seat belt sign was lit. Otherwise, you wouldn’t have known she was there.
Here’s the kicker, though. As we settled in, a couple took seats in front of us. The man leaned toward his companion and said, in a stage whisper, “It’s going to be a long flight…”, complete with disgusted looks in our direction. Like the OP, he was clearly of the opinion that children are always and in all places going to be an annoyance. This same unpleasant individual abruptly reclined his seat once during the entire flight, coincidentally (?) just after my son was served his lunch. Only my “parental radar” and quick reaction time prevented the tray from being dumped into my son’s lap. While I can’t know for sure I strongly suspect he was getting his revenge on us for having the gall to contaminate his perfect world with our children. This attitude is what prompts such strong reactions from parents. I am in complete agreement with rundogrun’s beautifully put statement: If you are going to treat me and my family as second class citizens because we have kids, then fuck you. We are not extras in your life’s movie.
I sure hope that no one is thinking this about me. Because I thought my comments and anecdotes were perfectly clear with respect to how I treat fellow travelers, even when I am upset or overly bothered by them.
However, since two people now have brought this statement up when either quoting or referring to me, it seems that once again no one is bothering to acknowledge the fact that I am a polite traveler, as well as being a polite person. Even when I was hit in the face by the child, my only reaction was to politely ask the flight attendant if I could be moved. Since most flights I am on are full, this is pretty much a joke. I did not “roll my eyes” or make any rude comments, or give dirty looks. I was too busy trying to stop tears from being hit so hard. The parent’s only reaction was to look at their child, and say “Hey! You apologize for that!” To which the child responded “NO!”. End of discussion.
I said that children seem to be a binary state device simply because in my limited experience, parents seem to be completely unable to control their children once they start to seriously act up. And I’m not talking about a fussy child, or a sick child, or just an unhappy child, and you all know that. I know children don’t like to fly. I know their ears hurt. This makes me sad for them, and for their families. I’m talking about seriously disruptive children here - and I always was just talking about them.
I fear that only rackensack really read my long, rambling post. I’ll just be mentally tallied up as another rude bitch who hates all children. Sigh. I’m going to quit. It’s obvious that I’m not getting my point across. And I’m sorry I’m not able to write “beautifully phrased” or “beautifully put” words on this subject in particular. But my points are no less valid because of that.
Obviously, from the lack of support I have for my position here from other Dopers, I must be way out in left field.
Nope. This wasn’t directed towards you. It was a response, and remains my response, to the attitude of the OP. In your anecdotes, you did handle yourself well, even in the face of what seems like disinterested parents. But all kids are not disruptive. Like it or not, they DO have a right to be on a plane. And parents, to the best of their abilities, do have the responsibility of maintaining control. And if they are slacking off, then you have the right to speak up. Nobody should have to sit in a seat getting kicked in the back. No parent should allow this to happen. And if it is happening, no passenger should sit there and not complain about it.
And if we all cooperate, then we can join in unison to bitch about the two hour takeoff delay at LaGuardia.
Damn, rack. After watching you in this thread, I’ve come to the conclusion that I should have gone to class instead of doing all that comparison shopping at Lake and Oscar’s.
