I argue that the remedy you propose is ineffective.
Can you explain how you figure such lawsuits might play out?
I agree.
I agree with the sentiment, but not the methodology you’re cheering.
NM
Ah, OK then no problem!
Someone has a mob sicked on them by some militant asshole with more hate than brains and they only have to go through the easy steps of suing for defamation… someone and then somehow have the Internet forget to clear their name; are you going to chip in to pay those lawsuits by the inevitable innocent victims of the vigilantism you are advocating?
I’m torn.
On the one hand, I’m sympathetic to the argument that doxxing as a tool is ethically problematic because of the potential for misidentification (and even outright malicious axe-grinding abuse), and therefore should be eschewed.
On the other hand, it’s really frustrating to not know who the fuck Kyle Quinn is, and to not feel comfortable asking for a link, because of the reasons given on the first hand.
Exactly.
The even bigger problem is right now pretty much everyone agrees Nazis are awful and it’s totally acceptable to hate on them and look for ways to ruin their lives.
But what when it’s not Nazis? What when it’s something relatively innocuous like coal seam gas protestors/supporters, or someone for whom a comment was taken out of context and a hate mob formed before (or in spite) of them clarifying they didn’t say the thing? What about if it’s something like objecting to planning approval for a popular development, but for arguably legitimate reasons?
That’s the issue. It’s not about defending Nazis, it’s about making sure that whatever cause you support isn’t the next target of Two Minutes Hate and you find yourself unemployed because someone thought you didn’t deserve to be able to support your family because they didn’t like your views.
I’m reminded of news stories I’ve read about people in Ugandan and Kenyan villages being persecuted because an unfriendly neighbor denounced them as practicing witchcraft. Can you believe it? I would smugly think to myself, “What ignorant rubes! I’m sure glad nothing like that could happen here!”
I’m sorry, the concept that it’s always the moral thing to let these things go doesn’t feel right to me. I get the counter arguments, really, I do, but it still doesn’t sit well with me. What does it mean when people say “free speech doesn’t mean consequence free speech”? Is thinking that an entire religion needs to be genocided really just a harmless opinion akin to whether it’s proper to wear white after Labor Day? It certainly doesn’t to the people just told they needed to die.
Or maybe I just feel like “it’s morally wrong” is being used as to end the discussion, but it should really be just the beginning. At the least, I don’t think we should end it at “Sorry, but that Nazi has the right to say that he wants to shove you and your children in an oven without consequence of any kind because free speech. And if you try to affect his life in any way because he advocated said oven shoving, you’re the bad guy. Hey, what’s for lunch?”
Only in DT’s America would someone get pitted for being anti-Nazi :rolleyes:. I wonder if I will ever wake up from this twilight zone nightmare. I did nazi this coming…
Don’t want to be doxxed? Then wear your damn hood.
Seems simple enough. Any time you post public photos, or appear in them, you run the risk of being falsely identified or accused. Life comes with risks. None of us too much worry that our innocent Facebook pics will end up being misidentified and cause us distress in some way, but it does happen. More than you think! Billions still take the risk.
Same with Pride parades. When they first started it was a risk to participate or attend, you could be doxxed and IDed, maybe publicly humiliated. Thank God people were willing to take that risk.
If you scream racists or misogynist crap at a reporter on the street I have no problem with you being identified, publicly shamed and losing a job as a result. If you haven’t figured out, as a grown adult, that employers don’t like having shameless douchebags on the payroll, then you’ve earned a painful life lesson, in my opinion.
Ditto with nazis and other purveyors of hate. If you’re proud enough to publicly appear with them I’m not seeing any reason to feel sympathy when you get publicly shamed for doing so. I’m NOT sorry your employer doesn’t fancy a Nazi on staff, I’m glad.
Cops sometimes misidentifying people, sometimes even shoot innocents. No one is advocating that they stop making arrests because sometimes it goes horribly wrong. It’s ridiculous to consider for Nazi doxing or cops.
And yes, the innocent families of mass murders, and scoundrels often suffer unpleasant consequences. That isn’t an argument for not bringing their loved ones to justice or publicly identifying them.
If you publicly behave in ways that bring you, (and yours) infamy, that’s on you, not on society for noticing or remembering your name.
During the actual Nazi regime the GESTAPO didn’t have to do much real investigating. People like Chimera were only too eager to denounce their neighbours.
Personally, I think there’s blame on both sides. Don’t be a dickhead in public, sure, and don’t be surprised if being a dickhead in public gets you on the news.
Having said that, just because someone is being a dickhead in public - unless it affects you personally, directly or tangibly - is no reason to try and get them fired or otherwise fuck their life up any further.
Look, I get the white hot rage of indignation and outrage feels good, and it feels good to say “Yay, we showed that person with views I don’t like!” but it’s not worth it. It really, really isn’t.
How would you like it, as a teenager, if your mum or dad lost their job because someone on the internet didn’t like their views - and fucked up your life in the process, because suddenly your family had no income?
Didn’t like their views? Who’s talking about that? Someone screaming obscenely racist or sexist things during a live news feed is not a case of ‘Gee, I disagree with your opinion.’ You do this as an adult, you face the push back. Yeah, what you did wasn’t illegal. It’s also not illegal for your boss to fire your ass for bringing disgrace to his brand by your antics.
Appearing at a white supremist/Nazi gathering is a decision you’re free to make. To think it’s not going to have consequences is ridiculous. If you’re unable to face those consequences either stay home or do what the KKK have always done, and for the same reason, wear a hood! Conceal your identity if you’d like to protect your job and family from your shameful behaviour.
No, I’m sorry, white supremists, and Nazis do not deserve any protection whatsoever from public shaming. They deserve a constant, unending stream of very public shaming in my opinion.
So if it turned out one of your parents had bigoted views and got fired, that wouldn’t bother teenage you at all?
Which is exactly why AntiFa prefers to wear masks…
Who cares? We don’t base our actions or moral judgements on whether or not it upsets a teenager.
But if we did, I’d assume that teenager was in desperate need of someone to explain to him that it’s not the photographer’s fault that his parents participate in Nazi rallies.
Right. It’s so sad that no one has ever designed a mask for Fascists to wear. You should get on that, Latro.
It would bother me, but the fault would lie entirely with my parents. If they went in public and espoused hatred, they put their careers at risk, and it’s not the fault of people for noticing, or taking pictures, or even informing their employers.
My parent’s bigoted views aren’t what got him fired. His screaming them into a street reporter’s face did. You can’t see a difference?
Do I have to keep a guy who damages my van, with his bad driving choices, because it will cause his family hardship to fire him? No, that’s ridiculous. If he makes bad choices, expressing his political views, that damage my business brand he and his family will suffer the same regrettable consequences. His choices. He owns the consequences, no one else.
I find I’m cool with you firing that crabby server, even though her kids are no doubt unhappy about it, and a family may lose income. Should she get to keep her job to avoid that?
It seems an incredibly silly argument to me.
I’m asking you to put yourself in the shoes of a teenage person whose parent(s) have just lost their job because they did something that someone else on the internet found objectionable enough to track down and get them fired.
Whether that’s attending a Nazi rally, supporting coal seam gas extraction, or going trophy hunting, my point is that trying to fuck with people’s livelihoods for having views you don’t like has effects well beyond “That will teach them to have views I don’t like!”
Has anyone actually read what Chimera was proposing? He’s not saying “Hey, that guy at that rally looks sort of like my fourth-grade teacher! Burn him!”. That’s got a huge risk of identifying the wrong person, so we shouldn’t do that. What he’s doing is looking at things posted online using a Facebook identity, and putting it together with other things done online under that same Facebook identity, and pointing out all of those connections. How is that going to hit any innocent bystanders?