Chinese re: (1) the West & (2) Japan

(1) Assuming there are a number of views that can be generalised as ‘Chinese Opinions of the West;’ what are they. How do the Chinese consider Western people?

For example, In Hong Kong, where children must have regular sightings of Western people, how do parents respond when asked why the Western people are so much larger?

(2) Similarly, While there is a history of animosity between China and Japan, the two appear in fact very similar. The Eastern China coast in particular, appears strongly Japanese influenced. Is there a popular understanding at odds with the official Japan = Evil line, held by the Party and obediently riotous students alike?

Western people are taller because we drink milk. Modern young Japanese are significantly taller* than their parents, who are again significantly taller than their parents. Not sure about China and height, but still it boils down to milk.

As to Japan and China hating each other. Japan (or at least the populace) doesn’t hate China–but from my trip to Hong Kong and mainland China, dislike for all things Japanese wasn’t hidden. Certainly the two area may be similar, but they’ve been two nearby civilizations for the last several thousand years, so I don’t think that’s saying much. You would need to be a bit more specific for me to comment further.

  • No cite, just observation

On a note similar to this, there is an MMORPG sponsored and being developed by the Chinese Red Army Youth League called “All Japanese Must Die” or something of that sort. It’s a game about the WWII & Pre-WWII Japanese Invasion of China.

I personally have heard that many Chinese vehemently hate the Japanese and their culture, coming from having quite a few friends actually born in China or have close ties with their home country.

Damn the lack of an edit feature.

Quick addition: From what I’ve heard from my friends, a lot of the modern Chinese grievances come from WWII-era atrocities caused by the Japanese. There are stories abound of military experiments and events such as the Rape of Nanking that are still very poignent in the Chinese memory.

Dammit!

One more addition.

The Eastern Coast of China tends to be so violently against Chinese because the Japanese, IIRC, didn’t push westward, but rather invaded south along the coast. Therefore, cities like Shanghai and Hong Kong recieved the blunt of their attacks.

Most of East Asia (China and Korea most of all, I think) hates Japan, because of what Japanese did during the earlier half of the 20th century. If you read The Rape of Nanking, it will give you an idea of why China hates Japan so much. While American children learn about the Holocaust, children in Asia learn about Japan’s atrocities. The bitterness and anger still run pretty deep.

Nitpick: It should be brunt of their attacks, meaning “principal force”. Blunt means a dull edge or point. (Unless you’re making a joke about Asian mispronounciations…)

Brunt. Sorry. =P It’s late, ok?

HazelNutCoffee…as always becareful of making statements like that. No one questions what atrocities were commited durng the war, but if you do your reading, there were many asians who supported Japan liberating them, including parts of inda. Yes, some countries learn about what Japan did during the war. But by saying that most of these residents hate Japan, isnt it like saying most of Europeans hate the Germans? Japanese movies, and music are very popular at the moment in East Asia, and the Japanese in general are very much looked upon with respect in regards to their products etc…at least that’s what Ive heard from my travels all throughout south east asia.

Back to the original question though. Im living in Japan, married into the culture, and have been here for 10 years. If stereotypes of Chinese from the Japanese perspective is what the originator is looking for, then I can give you only one perspective and that is from my significant other.

After just asking her to give me 3 negative stereotypes, and 3 positive ones that she felt Japanese see in Chinese the answer I got was:
Negative: Chinese are stingy, ikagen (half-assed), and dirty
Positive: They are kind, intelligent and the women are good looking.

If it means anything, there are many, many Chinese here in the universities at the moment. This has definitely changed over the years, and slowly they are gaining respect. The Koreans however still seem to generally get more respect than the Chinese here, which says a lot.

One interesting point however is that whereas a high class meal in the U.S. may be a French meal…here it is Chinese.

Sino-Japanese relations have been iffy for a long, long time, not limited to WWII atrocities.

Japan was sending emissaries to China as early as the later Han dynasty (and possibly earlier, but that’s getting into the semi-mystical), and had lots of cultural exchange throughout the years. Most of the time they were on friendly terms, but a couple of major conflicts developed during the Sui, Song, and Yuan dynasties.

In fact, the term “kami-kaze” comes from a failed invasion by Kublai Khan when the Mongolian navy met with a typhoon that destroyed the entire fleet.

The Ming dynasty also had a recurring problem with Japanese pirates.

In the late Qing dynasty, because Japan modernized early, it had the military power to pressure China. After the Sino-Japanese war, Japan gained control of Taiwan and many other south-eastern islands.

During WWI, Japan took advantage of the chaos and made a series of unreasonable demands on China, leading to a wave of nationalism and strong anti-Japanese sentiment; during WWII, Japan further invaded and established a puppet government in Manchuria, among other things.

As far as everybody else goes, the Asians I’ve met were pretty darned racist (just ask a Chinese guy for his opinion on blacks and try not to wince). People of my parents’ generation especially don’t want their kids dating Westerners, not even in the US.

My high school zoology teacher in 1966 told me that although the cartoon stereotype of WW II Japanese showed them to be short, the average height of Japanese soldiers in that war was over 6 feet. My old teacher is now dead, and I don’t have a cite either.

I don’t have widespread experience, but here are a few personal observations:

  1. I’ve been to China 3 times to adopt my daughters, twice for business. I’ve never had a bad experience. Mostly people want to practice their English and ask how things really are in the US. No one has ever had a bad word for us, and this is a white couple going around with a Chinese kid.

  2. “Racial Prejudice” has a special meaning in China. I asked about it and was told “There is no racial prejudice in China…all Chinese treated same.” Meaning that the ethnic minorities get the same treatment as Han (primary ethnic group). Westerners, on the other hand…

  3. Much the same for “religious freedom.” Our guide on one trip was very proud to say “We have religious freedom in China! You can be any one of 5 religions!” (Catholic, Christian, Hindu, Buddist and I forget what else). All others are forbidden, of course.

  4. We saw quite a few younger people who were about a foot taller than their elders (OK, maybe only 8-10 inches taller). I suspect vitamins and better nutrition in general rather than just milk (do you have a cite for the milk claim?). On the other hand, my first adopted daughter is a micro person despite the vitamins, nutrition AND milk she is getting here. Sometimes it’s just genetics.

I sincerely doubt the average height of the soldiers of ANY army was over six feet tall. It is certainly true, however, that Allied troops were often quite surprised when they found the Japanese were not the short, buck toothed, near sighted dorks they had been expecting. It was believed by many people before the war that the Japanese couldn’t fly planes at night because of their slanted eyes.

Ditto – I don’t the average height of the male population of *any country *, much less an Asian country, is over 6 ft.

I think the Swiss Guard averages over 6 ft, though, because they have a height requirement.

No.

The difference in height seen in post-WWII Japanese children is a result of overall improved nutrition, not milk. But even still, there are height differences between the various ethnic groups. Northern Chinese, for example, tend to be much taller than their southern “cousins”. Japanese and Koreans, even with comparable nutrition, are not as tall as Northern Chinese or Europeans (on average). Japan is one the richest nations on earth, and Japanese children are not nutritionally deprived. Still, most Westerners in Japan tower over the crowds in a subway station, and Japanese school children still gawk at the tall *gai-jin *they see (I’ve had it done to me many times).

The average height of Dutch males is now just a bit over 6 feet Wikipedia has average heights for various nations , though the claim that the average height of Japanses soldiers in WWII is simply wrong - the Japanese have kept detailed records compiled from health checks at all of their schools since 1900, and the average height has increased from 5’2" for 17 year old males to 5’ 7" today. Cite.

Anyways, I very highly doubt that milk is the reason for the height increase, given that most east Asians are lactose intolerant, and thus wouldn’t be drinking that much milk anyways. Increased protein consumption, and better overall nutrition are the reason for the height increase.

As for different groups of people being taller, usually you find the largest people in the areas that are cold, but below the frost line. The tallest Asians live in northern China/southern Siberia, the tallest Native Americans are those from southern Canada and the extreme southern parts of South America, the tallest Europeans are the Dutch, Scots, Baltics and Scandinavians.

The frost line is the depth to which soil freezes. Middle Earth Dwarves may live below the frost line, but I’m sure no people anywhere in the real world do. I’m not at all sure what you meant to say here. Not snowline, perhaps below the extent of permaforst?

Anyway I can’t see it being true. There is a general principle that says that the warmer the climate the taller the people should be genetically because of heat dispersion, but genetics is only a small part of the picture. I can’t imagine any general principle which suggests that cold climates would result in increased height, and no such pattern seems obvious.

The tallest people in the world for millenia had traditionally been African herdsmen such as the Masia and Watusi, and even Homo erectus averaged a little under 6’ in tropical Africa compared to 5’2 in colder areas. The Hottentot and Khoi people of the coldest southern parts of the continent were so short they were commonly described as pygmies.

Amongst Polynesians size shrank dramatically as climate became colder. The people of the South Island of New Zealand were some 6" shorter on average than the people of Tonga and notably shorter than the people of the northern most parts of the North Island. No Polynesian territory was permafrost.

In Australia the tallest people were to be found in the most northerly parts of the continent. None of Australia is permafrost.

I’d have to see a reference before I believed this for a moment. The tallest Asians are normally held to be people from Central Asia and Russia. I have never heard of Russians or Iranians considering Siberians to be particularly tall.

Not sure about North America, but the people of the extreme southern part of South America have always been descibed as short, stunted or underdeveloped. There is one group from Tierra del fuego, the Onas, who were described as being monstrously tall by the earliest writers, something like 8’ for the men. That story is supposedly where the name Patagonia comes from, being a reference to a legendary Spanish giant. But either they shrank dramatically following European contact or this was just a “here be dragons” story. Moreover the Onas lived well north of the much more frequently contacted and well documented shorter people, certainly not in the extreme south.

The tallest Europeans today may be, but that wasn’t the case even 50 years ago, when the tallest Europeans were Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans and Americans, who were largely of English and Irish descent. IOW those people who came from mild European climates and moved to tropical climates almost invariably outgrew their parents and all other stay-at-home Europeans.

Which simply shows that diet is the main determinant of size, not physical environment. In some parts of the world colder climates will produce better diet because of the effects of past glaciation on soil. But there are many parts of the world where exactly the opposite is true.

Just to complicate things further height will vary markedly within groups. The Onas may have been a respectable height, though not 8’ giants, but they were indisputably neighbours to people who were no taller than 5’5" Europeans. Similarly some island groups around New Zealand were descibed as of normal height while their mainland relatives were short. This sort of variation makes it very hard to generalise anything on a continental level.

I’m fairly curious about the common wisdom that most East Asians are lactose intolerant. In both Japan and Korea, ice cream (presumably with lactose) is quite popular.

I can’t speak for ice cream consumption, but most East Asians are indeed lactose intolerant, somewhere between 80 and 95% compared to less than 20% for Europeans. Maybe there isn’t sufficent milk in ice cream to have an effect or perhaps it is treated with lactase to remove the problem.

Tibetans (especially from Kham) and Mongolians are tall and big people. 6 foot plus is pretty common. Not coincidentally, both are basically nomadic pastorialists and have a diet very high in milk (yak, goat or horse) and meat. There are quite a few Mongolians now in Japan as sumo wrestlers.

To answer the OP, Sino-Japanese relations are extremely complicated.

Younger people without the war experience view Japan much as they might the US. In some ways it’s the promised land. You’re made if you go to one of these countries for work and study. Japanese pop culture (music, films, tv shows, etc) are extremely popular.

Teenagers just can’t wait to join in a government approved protest for whatever cause of the day is. It only happens every five years so damn if they will miss it. What are we so “self appointedly, importantly, spontaneously protesting” - oh Japan?! Damn, those rotten bastards, let’s trash their restaurants (in reality Chinese owned and operated), wreck some cars (produced in 50-50% owned joint ventures with Chinese companies), and be lined up within stoning distance of the approved embassy targets and go wild. Exact same thing happend during the Belgrade embassy bombing (and was not allowed to happen during the Hainan plane incident).

Older Chinese are mixed in their view. Some virulently hate the Japanese, some from Manchuria and Taiwan like the Japanese, and most are relatively indifferent. Some things they like, some they don’t. For example, my ex PLA father in law saw the Japanese first hand in Shanghai and also fought against the Japanese. He’s entirely neutral (whereas my US Army father still harbors significant amount of predjudice against the Japanese left over from his combat days).

I have never really noticed outright predjudice or hostility toward Japanese. I have Japanese friends and many clients that are Japanese. I’m sure it happens but generally the Chinese people may hate your country but don’t hold it against individuals.

The government keeps Japan on a short leash as a convenient boogey man to flog whenever deemed necessary. Can’t get to virulent as there is massive Japanese investment fueling the China export machine.