I never said all would get into heaven. I even quoted a passage from Matthew saying specifically that some who expected to get into heaven would be sent to hell.
Frankly, vanilla, I’m getting pretty tired of you distorting my words.
CJ
I wasn’t quoting you, I was stating my beliefs, in case any wondered.
Then who were you talking about? As far as I know, no one in this thread has said everyone goes to heaven. The question at hand is, “Do only Christians go to heaven?”
Let me tell you about my father, vanilla. He’s a man, who’s lived a long, reasonably good life. The biggest sin he’s committed that I know of is maybe not knowing how to handle a daughter who took after him entirely too much and inherited all his faults (I’ve never heard him admit to having any virtues. 
). He’s been happily married to my mother for over 40 years now, and, between them they’ve produced three responsible, respectable adults, not to mention a couple of grandkids, all of whom he loves deeply. Now, despite being born in the wilds of northern England, my father still managed to be raised by a Baptist, which means he wasn’t baptized as a baby, the way most British kids were in his day and the way my brothers and I were. For some reason, when the time came, he chose not to be baptized and, while he’s darkened the door of a church many times over his life and even sung in choirs, he never has been baptized and he doesn’t consider himself a Christian, although he thinks there’s something out there greater than us. It’s not my grandmother’s fault. She remained a devout Christian all her life, and I still remember going to church with her when I visited England when I was a girl. Can you honestly tell me that God will not forgive my father’s sins, however great or small, because he isn’t a Christian?
Earlier in this thread, you accused me of thinking I was greater than God. Some of the things my father did wrong, however good his intentions were, and they were good, damaged me badly. Nevertheless, he’s my father, I love him, and I have forgiven him. He repents of them, I know, and I’m pretty sure he repents of some things which may not actually have been sin. If I can forgive my father on earth, how can God, our Father in Heaven, not forgive him? I’m a fallible human being, cut from the same cloth my father is. I was also directly damaged by his sins in a way God was not. If I can forgive my father, but God can’t or won’t, does this mean I am greater than God? To me, that’s ridiculous.
Would God condemn my own father, whom I love greatly, to an eternity of torment because the same contrary, questioning mind God gave both of us led him away from Christianity? He didn’t go that far – he had all three of his kids baptized and served as godfather to another couple of kids. Still, I get the impression you would say he is damned for all eternity. He’s my father. I love him. I do not, I cannot choose to believe he is condemned.
This is personal, lass. At least it is to me. Your beliefs damn my father. Mine leave room for hope, for without hope, damnation is redundant.
CJ
Proud daughter of a stubborn, contrary, engineer
I want to make a correction in the Scriptural reference that I made. As most of you probably know, I was referring to 1 Corinthians, the 13th chapter – rather than the the first chapter and the 13th verse. I knew something didn’t look right about that.
The 12th chapter is also relevant to some of the things that have been brought up. It’s about how the Christ is a single body with many parts.
(1 Corinthians 12:14-20) Good News For Modern Man, The New Testament in Today’s English Version
Oh my goodness. I’ve become a Bible thumper.
Siege, glad to hear that things are in such a good place after all! (I had just thought that some of the things that were being said here were hurtful to you.)
Vanilla, I was hoping that an open dialogue between us could enlighten both of us. Apparently that is not going to happen yet. I wish good things for you.
I did not make up my beliefs, I got them from God’s letter to me (and us).
People believe so many differing things about vital points, we can’t all be correct.
No, we can’t. At least, we can’t all be completely correct.
But damn. We don’t all have to be perfectly in agreement, either.
vanilla, I know you think you have the goods. I understand that. It’s pretty obvious that when you say “we can’t all be right,” you really mean “I’m right.” But I know for a fact that you don’t much like someone coming up to you and saying “I’m right and you’re wrong, period.” That’s what you’re doing here. And you’re doing it in spite of claiming that everything’s really up to God.
I accept that you believe I’m going to hell. I’m not sure how you can reconcile that with your admission that only God knows what will happen to anyone, but I accept it. But I have to do what I have to do. CJ has to do what she has to do, and David, and Zoe, and everyone. I don’t want you to believe we’re all hellbound, but the simple fact is that I don’t know. We might be. It’s not up to me.
But I’m going to live my life, as best as I can. He knows my heart, and I trust in His judgement. If He wants me in Hell for all time, so be it.
But you cannot make that judgement for me. Think what you want. Be as certain as you need to be. But it’s not up to you.
I love you, Sister. But please, leave God up to God.
And none of the rest of us made up our beliefs, either.
I didn’t choose my beliefs-they’re just how I feel, deep down. Couldn’t change them if I tried. God isn’t stupid, (at least, I HOPE he’s not!), so he knows me, he knows what’s in my heart, and if I tried to go fundy, he’d be able to tell that, deep down inside me, I wasn’t truly into it.
So I’m not going to pay lip service to something I don’t believe. Something that I can’t MAKE myself believe. Nor want to.
So did I, and I showed you exactly what part of that letter I got them from. I’ve also admitted the possibility I could be wrong.
Answer me, please. Do you believe my father is damned and, if so, is it just that God should do so?
CJ
Only God really knows that, Mercy triumphs over judgment.
But, yes, God is just when people send themselves to Hell.
Is it just that people should be in jail?
That’s all I ask, lass: that you admit you don’t know. I don’t know either, although I know what I hope and what I must believe in order to remain a Christian.
For me, God’s mercy, and his giving me a place to belong and be loved unconditionally when I had none is paramount in the witness I must bear to the world, to get close to the long-lost OP. For you, it’s different, I assume.
One thing, vanilla. You and I have come to where we are in Christ through very different paths, and the things we repent of are very different indeed. One thing I want to assure you of is, even if everyone does get into heaven, it in no way diminishes who you are, what you have done, or who you have become. The sacrifices you’ve made, the pain you’ve felt, and even the ridicule you’ve suffered from Christian and non-Christian alike are not in vain. You’ve had a hard life at times, and I know you’ve taken a lot of flak for your choices. Even if you do find yourself in heaven surrounded by Wiccans, agnostics, and God knows what else, your life, your faith, and your witness to this world are as valid as they would be if the rogues and odd ducks were on the outside.
Peace be with you, sister,
CJ
lass?
Fair enough.
By the way, whatever happened to that poster called Iceland_Blue?
It’s a term of affection, used to a friend and meaning a young woman. Among other things, that fellow I nearly married years ago used to call me “lass”. While we’re on the subject of definitions, “soppy” means very sloppily and/or cutely affectionate. While I will never use terms such as “snugglebunny”, it’s that kind of affection. Be warned, to much exposure to me at the wrong time could result in an overdose of saccharine! 
CJ
I’m coming in late to the discussion, but this seems to be a key point of contention. When someone says that non-Christians can find salvation, he’s not claiming that “Anything goes! Everybody’s a winner!” And he’s not dismissing the teachings of Christ or the words of the Bible. It’s just not that black and white.
You and millions of other people (including, I believe, myself) have found salvation through the teachings and the sacrifice of Christ, and God’s gift of Christ to the people of the world. For us, that defines how we live our lives on earth, our understanding of what we do, and our perception of what happens to us after we die. It’s not simplistic, it’s not arbitrary, it’s not a “myth” or a “superstition,” it’s simply the way the universe works. When we find that peace during life and that assurance of heaven in the afterlife, that is the purpose of Christ’s sacrifice and that is why it was important, so that we may be saved.
Now if a Muslim finds peace in his afterlife, or an atheist knows peace and doesn’t suffer eternal damnation after his death, does that mean that Christ’s sacrifice was wasted? Does that mean that all of us (i.e. self-described Christians) are wrong? Of course not.
If I subscribe to a belief system, if I call myself a Christian, and then I act against the teachings of Christ, and I don’t truly and sincerely accept Him as my savior, then I’ll go to hell because I chose to live my life against my belief system. But if someone who were raised in a completely different environment than my own, whose family and culture taught a different belief system, who has worked every bit as hard as I have to come to his own understanding of how the universe works, if that person lives his life against my belief system, he goes to hell and suffers eternal damnation? That’s not “just,” that’s nonsensical.
When I acknowledge that Christianity may not be “The Way” for others, I’m in no way diminishing it, because I know that it’s “The Way” for me. And that’s valuable.
Treating theology as “I win, you lose” is just as simplistic and shallow as “Everybody wins!” My salvation doesn’t depend on other people’s being damned. The only thing I focus on is “I win.”
I know many dopers appreciate the thinking and writing (and indeed life) of CS Lewis. He addressed the issue of salvation in a talk he gave originally to a group of Anglican priests and youth leaders in 1945. It was subsequently published in various collections, including the one I have, Timeless at Heart (London: Fount, 1987), as ‘Christian Apologetics’.
There’s more to understand, of course, but it is as much the spirit of the message as the message itself that is important when attempting to convey one’s Christian beliefs.
Thanks, Roger – precisely what several of us have been trying to say, well phrased and quoted from a highly reputable source. To you: Matthew 5:9
Yes, excellent point, roger. I’d even take it one step further, and emphasize one idea that Lewis kept coming back to over his life:
That He cannot anything.