Christian Dopers Thread

Great Debates
201

FriarTed, my friend, I would never ignore you. In fact, there’s a lot to be said for your last post. I’m afraid I missed church last Sunday, thanks to the Move Which Never Ends and a standard U-Haul foul up, but I will certainly be reading my rector’s sermon on-line. Given recent events in the Episcopal Church, it should be interesting, not that it’s ever dull.
As for you,Vanilla, here’s where I stand.

(See that passage from Matthew I cited earlier.)

You have condemned my brother in spirit and Polycarp’s to eternal torment while allying yourself with those who have shown you cruelty while proclaiming the word of Christ. What you do to the least of my brothers, so you do also to me. I do believe I’ll join him in hell. If you get tired of the company you’ve chosen in heaven, you’re welcome to join us. I’ll even keep a cup of hot chocolate warm for you if Dante’s right about what hell is like, or a glass of lemonade cold if the more conventional version is right.

I have faith, but I have no claim on or right to heaven. I do not presume to know God’s will, only who I am and what I believe. I can’t walk a conventional path, and I don’t want to anymore. I am as God made me. If He chose to save my life when I had nothing left except a desire to die, so be it. He’s a pretty smart fellow, this God Person.:wink: I assume that, knowing everything that is to be, as well as everything that is and was, and knowing what I’m like, including the contrary and awkward bits, He knew full well what my views are and what I’d choose to do with them. Left to myself, 12 years ago, I would have died. God chose otherwise. I don’t know about you, but that tells me something. Among other things, it tells me that my mortal paradigm of harsh judgement can be transcended by God’s mercy and forgiveness, no matter how far down someone has sunk, just as Christ transcended death to show in a most dramatic fashion that we are no longer bound by sin and death for God has forgiven us, Pharisee and Samaritan, Christian and Wiccan, alike. Under the law of judgement, I died. Under the law of mercy, I lived. This is my witness, before Christ and the world.

CJ

202

Guin, actually both the fundy bigots among the Pharisees and the liberal statist appeasers among the Sadduccees both had it in for Jesus. By “denomination”, Jesus seems to have been a Pharisee of the Hillel school, even proto-Hasidic with a smattering of what was to grow into Kabbalah. In comparison to today’s Christian spectrum, that would be around center-right Evangelical-charismatic, or so I think, which of course is why I position myself there.

He reached out to the outcasts & sinners AND to the rich & powerful while calling them all to repent of their sins & commit to Him. His enemies among the Romans, the Pharisees, and the Sadduccees had their own reasons for wanting Him dead, but He is very clear that His reason for going along with it is to be the Ransom & the Blood-offering of the New Covenant for the remission of sins.

Vanilla has never been reticent about her theological & political dichotomy. She is an exclusivist Evangelical & a progressive-liberal. I don’t see how they fit but it works for her. I am an inclusivist Evangelical & a bleeding-heart-rightist and I can certainly fit those together.

Vanilla, what does concern me, and I think I speak alongside Siege & Poly here, is that you seem to regard any view of Salvation as Inclusive or Universal as a denial of basic Christian faith. I totally deny Pluralist Inclusivist/Universalist teachings which deny the unique & supreme role of Jesus as Lord and Savior.
However, it’s quite Biblically consistent to see Christ’s Grace as extending beyond the Christian faith in this life, that God will gather non-C’tians to Him through Christ even by means of their Afterlife Judgement (Paul is very clear that we Christians will also be subject to God’s Fiery Judgement, I Corinthians 3:11-15).
I do think we have to extend the Gospel Call to everyone (hence I fully support witnessing, evangelism & missions) but we also have to recognize that not everyone is drawn by Father God to Him through Jesus in this life. Jesus in John’s Gospel is clear- no one comes to Him except drawn by the Father and no one comes to the Father except through Him (John 6:44, 14:6), but Paul is also clear
that God wants all to be saved & thus sent Jesus to be the Ransom for all, to be testified at the due time (I Tim 2:3-6), and the situations of life are clear, that not all in this life are drawn by the Father or called by the Church to Christ, but they will be, even if it is in the midst of the Fire of God’s Justice & Love.

Siege, I wasn’t really thinking you were ignoring me. Btw, prayers & thanks for your Wiccan friend. I also have a friend who is ex-C’tian, now professing Wiccan but I’m not sure how committed she is to it- granted, I am more concerned about her, but I also think Jesus has her indelibly marked. Anyway, I’m glad that your friend is there to share Christ’s Grace with you & vice versa.

203

Great post, Ted! I think it’s clear how our view of Jesus’s cultural stance influence our own positioning, and probably vice versa, but I see nothing to disagree with in your post other than that. (One of the reasons I “ignore” you is that generally I tend to agree with much of what you say, if not always your way of expressing it, and avoid nitpicking the remainder unless a point seems urgent to pull a distinguo on – hence I don’t respond to what you say often.)

This was the reason I tried to bring home to vanilla, in the remark that precipitated this hijack, that there is a difference between what Jesus Christ Himself may choose to do and what His followers are called to do and think in His behalf. He’s the Lord; I’m His servant. Sometimes that’s a tough thing to keep in mind, especially when I “know I’m right” – and even more especially when others “know that they are.”

204

Well, not exactly.
I am a cultural leftist, but a political libertarian.

As for Hell, there is no partying and fellowship with your fellow Hellites and friends. You are totally alone. Forever.
And yes, God IS just to allow this.

205

Says YOU. Any God who would condemn say, gobear to Hell while allowing Lynn73 into Heaven isn’t my idea of “just”. THAT kind of God resembles the “Might Makes Right” kings of the Middle Ages. In other words, all that matters is that you kiss his ass.

206

Wow . . . you sure know a lot.

207

Wow…so does everyone else here it seems…

208

OK, if you want to clarify that, fine. If not, all right.

Well, I agree with that, with a qualification on “forever” and the “total aloneness”- Damnation may well be forever and yet result in the final extinction of those who irrevocably close themselves to God/Christ (if one can so close oneself), and those Self-Doomed souls will be frightfully alone, even if they are all grouped together & aware of each others presence.

What really concerns me, vanilla, is how you seem to group those C’tians (tho you haven’t addressed me on this) who have a wider view of salvation that you (or I, for that matter) as barely Christian at all. While I differ with our liberal C’tian friends on some recent issues they’ve stood up for in their church, I certainly don’t fear they’ll be cast into outer darkness or accuse them of not being C’tian, even tho I could not in good conscience join their church at this time even as they probably couldn’t in good conscience join mine.
Andros, a quick aside here- Pelagian was a Christian, a heterodox one certainly, but still a believer in Jesus as God, Lord & Savior. He just differed with Augustine & his Roman churchmen on the issues of how grace, law, original sin & salvation all work together.

209

I’m joining this thread late, but I haven’t been able to post much in the last few months. I’m a member of the Pagan – I mean, Episcopalian, Church. In fact, right now I am the senior warden of a large-ish parish. Our church has recently gone through a split (thank you, Frank T. Griswald). I mean, our local congregation has split. Of course, the national church and international communion hasn’t quite split yet.

We are also in the home stretch in our search for a new Rector. As Sr. Warden, that means I’ve been in charge of this church for the past eight months with 400-600 regular attenders (depending on if you count them pre-split or post-split) and only one part-time priest. So that explains why I haven’t been posting much.

It’s certainly been an interesting year.

210

Thinking about the new job, the new man, the old friend who’s come back to town, my car which is filled with boxes to help the new man move, and my apartment which I now own, not to mention the prospect of singing Faure’s Requiem next month and Handel’s Messiah the following month, it has indeed been an interesting year, Skammer, and a hectic, but good one. I’m glad to see you’re doing well, despite the chaos.

Vanilla, when I posted that comment offering you a cup of hot chocolate or a glass of lemonade, I did so to soften what I was saying. I wrote what I did out of Christian love and compassion, something you don’t seem to be real big on right now.

Let me describe what things were like 12 years ago, when God had mercy on me. I was severly clinically depressed and nearly catatonic. That’s the clinical terminology. Here’s what it was really like. Imagine your soul being ripped millimeter by millimeter from your body while you scream in agony. Imagine knowing nothing but pain and darkness. Imagine being unable to see or speak. Imagine being unable to respond to someone you love dearly, even though you’re vaguely aware he’s there. Imagine your world is made up of nothing but agony, darkness, and screaming, devoid of light, devoid of love, devoid of anything remotely possible. That’s the state I was in for about 44 hours. That’s where I was when God found me. My fiance looked into my eyes and saw no soul there. I thought I was dead, damned, and unreachable. No doubt hell is far worse than that, but I got a taste of it then, and I haven’t fully forgotten how it felt. In the midst of that ceaseless, merciless torment, God reached out to me and pulled me out. I was still in a lot of pain, but I could respond to the world again. I could take pleasure in a hug from my fiance again or in going for a walk. I didn’t find God; God found me.

I know a bit about hell. While I haven’t been there, I’m pretty sure I’ve had a taste of what it’s like, and it’s not something I wish to taste again. I also know that, if God required it of me, I’d face it and taste it, because, more than ever since that awful time, I am His servant as surely as anyone who proclaims it in her user name. What I cannot do is condemn someone else to the torment I got a taste of, whether it’s someone I love, someone I do not love (I suspect hate is sinful), or a complete stranger. Force me to do that, and you’ve effectively the person you know as Siege.

I can’t say I wasn’t a Christian before that awful time; at the time I was a member in good standing at an Episcopal church, even teaching Sunday school. I’ve never been saved in the sense that Vanilla or even Polycarp has. My walk with Christ has been a sure steady growth that’s gone on ever since I was a little girl wondering why yellow and blue made green, not purple or why hydrogen and oxgen made water rather than, say, brass. I haven’t descended to the depths of sin as the world defines it, although the depths of despair I sank to may well have been sinful. I haven’t felt the need to be saved from my evil, sinful ways and refute my former life because there are some things in my former life which I am proud of doing and I’m not sure I can top them in terms of being the Right thing to do.

I do not know a lot. I only know who I am, what God has led me to know, and where I must stand or, ironically perhaps, betray He who died to save me. I’ll be the first to admit I could be wrong, and, as I’ve said many times, if I am, so be it. I know only what God has led me to know, what He has taught me by scripture, reason, and what I’ve learned from my fellow Christians (a variation on tradition, for the Episcopalians in the room). I also know that when I was tormented, in agony which wracked and nearly destroyed my soul, deprived of speech, deprived of prayer, even deprived of faith, God took away the judgement which was killing me and showed me mercy and life. How can I not do so to others and still serve Him honestly?

CJ

211

Damn, furt. I hope life starts looking up for you soon. Take care, and have hope.

I’ve recently been through a lot of the crap you describe, and I’ve gotten through it. However, I doubt I’ll ever call myself a Christian again. So maybe I’d better skedaddle out of this thread soon…

Having said that, my ethical and moral systems are heavily Chrisitian. I take to most of Christ’s teachings (as represented in the Bible) wholeheartedly. It’s that whole divinity part I no longer accept.

But since I’m not a Christian anymore, I’ll see you all later in some other thread…

212

Skammer, what a strange time this is for the Episcopalians. Do both groups continue to worship at the church at different times? What was the Bishop’s reaction to the split?

Siege, I’m sorry that you are hurting. You made me remember the hymnThere’s a Wideness In God’s Mercy. I think God continues to speak to us through friends, nature, great literature, simple hymns like this one, and much, much more.

Vanilla, if we want to know how forgiving God is, we have only to look at the story of the prodigal son. The son hadn’t particularly reformed. He was just hungry and had to eat so he went home. And his father ran to meet him and gave him special treatment and forgiveness even though he hadn’t asked for it! Isn’t that story meant to teach us about God’s love and forgiveness?

And another example: Jesus asked God to forgive the very people who were in the process of murdering him! He said that they didn’t know what they were doing. They weren’t sorry; they weren’t Christians; they weren’t asking for forgiveness; they weren’t acting with kindness. They were committing an act of murder and they were forgiven.

Now I do have to tease you a little bit. When I saw this: :rolleyes: in your post, I just have to ask you if that is the sign for “a soft answer” or “turning the other cheek.”

What is it that you want, Vanilla? Is it to reassure yourself? Condemn us? Change us? Teach us? Be a better Christian yourself? Whip us into shape? Win souls for Christ?

Whatever it is, I hope that you are soon overcome with a fits of love.

213

I am just stating the fact that Jesus died for our sins, and there is NO other way to Heaven except through His propitiary(SP?) death.

Claiming just “be nice” and get to Heaven would have had Jesus dying for nothing and the entire Bible a lie.

Just because others no longer here have come across in a not so loving manner, they were right and I must state that too.

214

Zoe, if I remember correctly, I think we are in the same diocese, so you may have heard about what happened at our church. Our rector left about a year and a half ago. Our Associate Rector was serving as interim when I became Sr Warden last February. He was very popular and charismatic (I mean, having charisma, not as in speaking in tongues).

Everyone in our parish has been opposed to recent… innovations in the Episcopal church, with some mad enough to leave ECUSA and some mad enough to stay. When our associate/interim rector realized he would not be called to be our rector (mostly due to the bishop’s opposition), he bolted along with about 130 or 150 of our members to start a new church under AMiA. They meet in a different church a few miles down the road. It was very painful for all involved.

Of course the bishop was sorry to see the split, but he and we are hopeful and excited about our future as we prepare to call a new rector. Our attendance has already started to rebound, so I think we’re going to come out of it more healthy and stronger as a congregation than we have been in a while.

215

That’s why I only call myself semi-Pelagian. I’m still a heathen at the moment, but I’m working my way up to heretic. :stuck_out_tongue:

Actually, I have a family member, a Methodist minister, who is a dyed-in-the-wool Augustinian. We have some . . . interesting discussions.

216

Vanilla, thanks for answering my question. I hope that you understand that the people here that you disagree with hold differing beliefs also and I’m never certain why you say certain things in your comments to me. For example:

Is that something that you think that I am claiming? If so, you have misunderstood what I have posted. Should I try to make myself clearer or does it matter?

I don’t think I’ve been critical of them in this thread. But why aren’t today’s fundamentalist Christians showing the fruits of the spirit more often? Why aren’t they showing the love and charity written about in Corinthians I:13? I honestly don’t understand that. When I was growing up, fundamentalists were the salt of the earth. And even though they were interested in saving soul back then, they generally treated others with respect and kindness.

They knew that like St. Paul and the rest of us, their knowledge was imperfect. That means that nobody is right about everything.

Pax

217

Ah, so the concept of “whatsoever you do to the least of then, you do unto me” is “being nice?”

We should all be “so nice!”

:dubious:

218

I fully agree that Jesus died for our sins and that there is no other way to heaven except through his propitiary death (I don’t know how to spell “propitiary” either). Where you and I are disagreeing is on who is included in “our”.

Earlier, I wrote about a Christian who nearly killed his wife by beating her. Does he get into heaven because he’s a Christian and has been both before and after he did this? Would he go to hell if he were not a Christian? That’s the core of the issue.

Two years ago, a Wiccan strengthened my faith. Some months after that, a Christian on this message board damaged it severely. I won’t provide a link, but I will post what I wrote at the time, if need be. Will the Wiccan suffer in hell for all eternity while the Christian goes to heaven? If so, how can I reconcile that to the mercy which I need to believe God has in order to survive?

I never said being nice was all you needed to get into heaven. I don’t know what the qualification are, nor, frankly, is it any of my business. I know what I need to believe in order to remain a Christian and one key thing is that Christ’s mercy must be enough for everyone, or it might not be enough for me.

Christ’s death was in vain?!!! Now, to me, that’s close to heresy. Tell me, if my Wiccan friend does get into heaven, pentacle and all, how does that damage your salvation? Does it make your life and your faith something done in vain? I don’t think so, and I’d be willing to bet he doesn’t either, and, if he does, he can forget coming over to my place to do laundry anymore!

We’re back to the old question which Christians have been arguing for over 1,000 years, whether it’s the fate of Wiccans or unbaptized babies. Was Christ’s atonement enough for everyone, or only for some? If it’s the latter, I suspect I’d better keep that passage from Matthew in mind, lest I start to think my place in heaven is assured.

By the way, Zoe, the only way I’m hurting these days is from moving entirely too many boxes. I recently left a job with an awful boss for one which is better and pays better, and I’m completely and utterly in love with a wonderful fellow. More to the point, a lot of the damage which came to a head 12 years ago has been healed, and to my amazement, I am actually whole in spirit in a way I never thought possible. Life is good right now, better than it ever has been, in fact. Let God be praised indeed! (And in deed;))

CJ

219

Agree totally with your first paragraph.
As for who, thats up to God.

As for all being forgiven, no, all are not.
All will Not get into heaven.

220

Yeah…but I think some of us will be surprised as to who goes where.

See, I think some fundies use Christ as a “Get Out of Jail Free!” card.

Now if anything would cheapen his death, I think that would be it, not good Wiccans going to Heaven.

:dubious: