Because you, vanilla, are proclaiming the Substitutionary Atonement – the doctrine that God justly condemned mankind to Hell totius porcus for sin, but allowed Himself to be bought off by the death in agony of His Son – because somebody’s blood had to be shed to satisfy Him.
With this goes the idea that you can get “saved” by “accepting Christ” – these terms having specific referents in the metaphysics; “Saved” is a status which some people have and others do not, because they have had a conversion experience; “accepting Christ” is a one-time event of turning from a life without God to one with Him, customarily including an altar call and/or the Sinner’s Prayer.
In short, your picture has stuff hanging off the edges that you’re not looking at, but which bother me immensely – because it paints the First Person of the Trinity as a sadistic megalomaniac with occasional streaks of compassion, rather than the Loving Father whom Jesus taught, and salvation as an event and not a process where God works within all people to reshape them and bring them closer to Him – because He loves them all.
I have no desire to get into a game of Dueling Bible Verses with you, but if you’re familiar with Scripture (as I know you are) and honest with yourself, you’ll know that my perspective is as founded in Scripture as yours.
If you want practicalities, look at Siege’s posts again. You’ve been around long enough to know what “good Christians” are supposed to think about Esprix, Jayjay, and Homebrew and how they’ve been treated by such dearly beloved evangelists for Christ as FriendOfGod and Lynn73.
Now, you tell me – what picture of God do you want to paint with your posts for people to see and believe?
And then there is my view, quite similar to vanilla’s except that I extend the timeline into the Afterlife, and quite similar to Polycarp’s except that we differ on what will qualify as punishable sins.
Its not mainstream christianity. It doesn’t seem like christianity at all.
You make it sound like christianity isn’t up to your standards (you are obviously more forgiving than God).
Yes, lots of people will be condemned, you can face up to that, and rant at God but He is just.
If we all get in, Jesus died for nothing. How stupid He was eh?
Believe what you want, I don’t know why you and others can claim differing truth and still say its christianity.
If we all are allowed to be in the presence of God forever, maybe it’s because Jesus died for all of us – because God so loved the world.
There is no way that I could ever deserve to be in the presence of God. I don’t even dare to think of what that would mean! I need more than justice. I need mercy.
Robert Frost said that Home is where when you have to go there, they have to take you in. My earthly father was that way. He loved me no matter what. And he said that God loved me even more.
Now that I have grandchildren, I am still more in awe of God’s love. Greater than this?
I wonder if Christian fundamentalists are more often products of households in which the relationship with the father was cold or unloving.
In rereading that, I had to smile. Just turn it around. We do it for the same reason as you: You claim a differing truth and still say its Christianity. Why do you do it? – Because it’s what you believe based on what you’ve been taught, what you’ve read, and what you’ve experienced and perhaps what’s been placed in your heart for a reason.
Think about the history of Christianity. Is it only those who have believed exactly what you believe who are Christian? What about Billy Graham? Isn’t he a Christian?
Oh, so where the Bible (and God speaking thru it) says that there IS a hell and people do go there, its something I can ignore, just pick what I like and don’t like in it. The rest will be allegory.
Christianity is whatever one wants it to be, there is no right no wrong no truth, its all relative.
’nilla, babe, I don’t want to piss you off. But honestly, you’re sounding very much like some other people you and I know. You gonna bring out the big guns next?
Oh, I guess I can check halfway in, while I’m here.
I’m a semi-Pelagian, currently shopping around for a chuch. I’m not yet interested to call myself Christian, but it might be getting there.
I didn’t say any of those things and don’t believe any of those things. Why would you think that I would mean that? You don’t talk about what I really say. And I don’t understand why.
What I am saying is that Christians can disagree about what the truth is and what is right and what is wrong – and still be Christians.
Who the HELL doesn’t “pick and choose?” Do you keep kosher? Do you handle snakes? Believe that Peter was the first Pope?
Jesus didn’t die for sin. He was put to death because a bunch of fundy bigots thought he was a threat to their establishment and so they convinced the government at the time that he was planning on overthrowing the Roman Empire.
And nowadays, the so-called fundy Christians-I truly believe that had they been alive during that time, they would have been right there calling Christ a heretic.
They go on and on about Jesus, but never even address what he taught.
And quite frankly, vanilla, you seem to change YOUR flavors of Christianity all the time. It seems you’ve gone back to the absolute fundy scale. Next week you’ll be ranting against the fundies. What is it?
This was my mistake. 100%. CSL was of course very popular in the States, both his Christian books and his Narnia books.
I was thinking about a story related by Walter Hooper, in a collection of essays he edited, about an American publisher who wanted words like “syndrome” to be added to his books in 1980s to make them more updated.
Vanilla, I’m a bit angry right now, so you might want to get a fire extinguisher or a bucket of cold water. I am not more forgiving than God. My own judgement and inability to forgive myself led to me trying to kill myself several times.
Let me tell you a story. Once when I was actively considering killing myself because I had lost my job and was of no use to anyone, that Wiccan friend held me in his arms and asked me “Does Jesus forgive you?”
“Yes,” I stammered out through my tears.
“Then why won’t you forgive yourself? Are you greater than God?” This Wiccan, a former Christian, who you and those who believe salvation is limited solely to Christianity, saved my life and strengthened my faith by citing Christ, Himself to me.
You may remember a former poster here who’s first husband threatened to rape her sister when she asked him for a divorce. Like her, he was a devout Christian. Several years ago in my city, Richard Rossi, a Christian minister, took his wife out into the country and beat her to the point where she nearly died and was hospitalized for several months. When questioned, he said it wasn’t him; it was a man who looked just like him, sounded like him, and drove a car just like his. He was convicted and was running a much smaller church in Pittsburgh’s North Hills last I heard. For that matter, let me throw out our good friend Fred Phelps who certainly considers a devout Christian yet is gleefully counting the days Matt Shephard to hell. All three of these men are, as far as I know, devout Christians, sincere in their faith in Jesus Christ. By your standards, all three go to heaven while my friend doesn’t.
Why am I a Christian? I’m not going to quote the entire Nicene Creed; among other things I’d prefer to use my own words. I am a Christian because I believe Jesus Christ is truly and completely God, yet He became truly and completely human, that God might understand and forgive all mankind. I believe that God in the Person of Jesus Christ chose to experience all the pain and joy of being human first hand, including that of being betrayed by one He trusted that He might demonstrate His love and compassion for us. I believe He knew despair that we might know hope.
Don’t tell me I don’t believe in hell; the very passage I cited in Matthew talks about hell, and I had the part which speaks of it in my post. Don’t tell me I don’t think certain people should go there. Among other things, I’ve spent the past several months helping and supporting a man while his marriage and reputation were destroyed. As it happens, the principal people behind it are also Wiccan, so you can’t even tell me I think all Wiccans get into heaven. Don’t tell me I don’t think we’re answerable for our actions in this world in the next. I’m acutely aware that I’m going to have a lot to answer for, including some of the things I’ve written here. I hope one thing I won’t be punished for is refusing to believe my father and one of my closest friends are condemned to everlasting torment because they’re not Christians, but I could be wrong. If so, I’ll take the consequences.
And now, if you’ll excuse me, I need to make a phone call.
First, as those who know me best know, I am a devout Christian and I believe the only reason I’m sitting here typing away and even breathing at all is because 12 years ago, Christ had mercy on me when I had no mercy for myself. For someone who knows me as well as vanilla supposedly does to imply that I am not a Christian is something I consider insulting.
Second, I had just quoted a passage from the Bible in which Christ speaks of judgement and even hell. Among other things, He implies that some people who are certain they’re going to heaven are going to be unpleasantly surprised, just as some who figured they weren’t will be pleasantly surprised. Vanilla, what you posted suggests to me you didn’t even read what I posted and made accusations based on the opposite of what I said.
I don’t know who gets into heaven; I don’t know that that’s any of my concern. I don’t even know if I’m going, only that I’ll take the consequences of my actions.
Ice checking in and it was Harvest Festival this week. Our youngsters managed to do a reading or two and entertain us with recorder and bells renditions of hymns. And some good news-my old Sunday School teacher who has had the pleasure of my delightful company for 20 years was taken ill last week. Passed out, turned white and went funny several times. Did it in the ambulance and at hospital for an encore. She’s now recovering and will be back trying to arrange the Nativity soon. She’s 78. And when she goes, she’ll do it in style. Halfway through a hymn or something
Siege speaks for me in every particular, save that what she’s saying she experienced firsthand are not the precise items in my life that led me to the same beliefs.
Vanilla, I don’t know what it is you think you’re arguing against, but I have a funny feeling it’s a couple of folks who look like Ray Bolger in The Wizard of Oz and are wearing signs labeled “CJ” and “Poly.” Take a good hard look at what Jesus Himself has to say about judgment, by humans and by Himself, and you may find some interesting stuff. We have both, for example, quite literally had our lives saved by people whom the Religious Right would condemn as not believing the right doctrines – kind of like those heretics from Samaria whom nobody liked in His day. We have both been taught to love by people whom society condemns as evil. And we both believe in a God “whose property is always to have mercy” – are we therefore to believe that He is less capable of loving and forgiving than the sinners He died to save?
vanilla, I don’t even consider myself a Christian anymore, so that’s beside the point.
What I said was the earthly reason that he was killed. That’s why people killed him. Why he went to it willingly, I don’t know.
But I ain’t watering down jack. Not ALL of Christianity, even mainstream Christianity, believes that only Christians (and the “right” ones, at that!) go to Heaven. Catholicism certainly doesn’t teach that.
It does, however, teach that one shouldn’t presume to be the authority on who is a “proper” Christian.
He went to it willingly because He was taking our punishment for our sins.
Simple as that.
Not everyone wants to be forgiven or to believe in Him.
They have chosen not to go to Heaven.
God will not force them.
First, I like Iceland_Blue’s idea to actually take this thread back to its original intent, for the short time it will stay there.
This past Sunday, good morning service with a singing evangelist family, about a half-dozen people came forward to accept or recommit to Christ, I led the usual 3-4 person Bible discussion class on The Purpose-Driven Apocalypse in Revelation 2 (Jesus’s letters to the Seven Churches). this Saturday will be our harvest party but my working Fri & Sat nights both will probably keep me from helping (which is OK as I like to be at home to give out candy to kids who celebrate proper Halloween L).
I’m actually surprised we won’t be having a special prayer service for the election. Our church leaders never endorse anyone, but its pretty clear from our beliefs who we lean with G
Next post will be hoping to soften the Exclusive vs Inclusive Salvation battle, only to be ignored as usual L
