Christian Dopers Thread

Great Debates
161

I will say that everyone is potentially saved. Those who can entrust themselves to God/Jesus & refuse are in real danger. And even they may well find themselves in Heaven, but will they experience it as Heavenly?
Revelation 14:11-12 warns that those devoted to the Beast “will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb” or literally “will undergo the touchstone ordeal of Fire and Divine Sulfur” in the Presence of the Angels and of Christ Himself for “aions of aions”.

Isaiah 30:33 For a burning place (Tophet/Gehenna) has long been prepared; indeed, for the king it is made ready, its pyre made deep and wide, with fire and wood in abundance; the breath (Hebrew “naoshma”- the breath God breathed into Adam in Genesis 2) of the Lord, like a stream of sulfur, kindles it.

Hebrews 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.
But even the dire warning of Revelation 22:15-

Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

is followed by this invitation, perhaps made to those outside the Heavenly City-

17 The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

162

Not sure where I stand here…I do believe in God and His Son, but I dont believe in Religion. I think organized religion has done more hurt and harm to this world than any other single factor. It has taken what should be something that brings everyone together into a “us vs them” mentality. You have Catholics, Protestants, Methodists, Baptists, Mormons…etc. All essentially believing the same thing, but not doing it together.

Never made any sense to me, and I could never think this is how God intended it to be.

163

vanilla, I don’t think he was just making excuses. He’s simply following his faith. Remember the sheeps and the goats?

That whatever you do to someone else, you do to God? Doesn’t that boil down to God being a part of us all?

He also said-God doesn’t need to be worshipped. That by stating so, people are claiming power over God-that he NEEDS us to give him substance. But it’s the other way around. (At least, for the believers).

164

Frankly I have enough to do keeping my own house in order to worry about what others are up to. I am too busy reveling in the happiness God has given me to scrutinize others. I know the orthodox doctrine of my religion (or will look it up if need be :slight_smile: ) and will share it when people are interested but hopefully my life speaks for me.

Should I get to be with Him forever (have mercy on me, a sinner), nothing will be taken away from the experience should it be such that we see who else is there. Why worry about who else is going to heaven when that’s up to God anyway and who are you to know or care? I know, if you love someone you want them to have the happiness of knowing God, but they have free will to be open or not.

We used to hear the catechism about those who have never heard of Christ still having a chance if they lived good lives. But those who have heard and haven’t believed, uh oh. Now I think that maybe it’s not just that you have heard of Jesus (and who hasn’t), but that you’ve really heard, or seen, the good news in the right way. Since those spreading the word are faulty, this may not happen. Seeing through a glass darkly and all that. So I guess I can’t judge after all.

–I’m traditional Roman Catholic Christian

165

roger, it was from Shadowlands that I first gained an appreciation for Joss Ackland. I chose not to see the other version because I was entired pleased with the original.

I’m not at all surprised that you worked at a mission near Victorian Station. I think that’s why I asked you. I’m just a little intuitive from time to time with some people. It’s not that I connected you with a mission, but that I did connect this thread with Victorian Station for some reason. I don’t fault those who see intuition as being irrational. (They have a lot of evidence on their side; I have some pleasant experiences to remember.)

Lissla, I haven’t read anything by L’Engle, but the friend who recommended her to me had become acquainted with her through her studies of kiddie lit. And I also appreciate a well-written story for any age.

I just reached behind my chair for one of my favorites for children to recommend to you. It’s called Anne and the Sand Dobbies by James B. Coburn. He was the Episcopal Bishop of Massachusetts. On the back was an endorsement by Madeleine L’Engle!

Vanilla, do you believe that God gives to us only what we deserve (justice) or does God also have the qualities of mercy (grace, compassion, charity)?

166

Guin ,my response was to your post.
God is a being, separate from us humans. Saying He is just the showing of love makes no sense, at least to christians.

Zoe, God does have mercy.
God also has justice; sin must be punished.

167

That was not what Guin said, at least as I understood her. That is one way in which God acts in the world, perhaps the most important way (and there’s Scripture to validate that; see John 13).

But it’s impossible for a human being to atone for his sin. The debt is larger than any resource he might have to pay for it.

Oddly enough, God also has forgiveness. This is something that fundamentalists and other conservatives pay lip service to but don’t seem to have any theology about. Jesus over and over says, “I didn’t come to condemn people, and I don’t condemn you; God forgives you; I forgive you; now go, and act like someone that’s had God’s mercy shown to him/her.”

To be sure, you can invoke God’s justice on yourself, by failing to act as a forgiven sinner – but that’s not something I’d encourage anyone to do.

168

I don’t know that I would use the word punished. It’s hard for me to imagine punitive measures as being a force for the good. I do think that God corrects us and teaches us and sometimes that isn’t always pleasant or painless. But the pain isn’t something that God inflicts to punish me. (“The rain falls on the just and the unjust.”

I believe that God is merciful and forgiving. I hope there is a sense of humor and irony. Surely there is patience, compassion. And there is a Bible verse that says, “God is love.” And there is something about if we dwell in love, we dwell in God.

169

Well, FriarTed, I own Lost In The Cosmos, and my best friend threatened me with death if I didn’t read The Moviegoer. Erm. I haven’t actually read either, yet.

Not true- I read part of Cosmos a few years ago, and thought it would be better if I were reading it with someone else.

I copied down your suggestion, Zoe.

170

The problem I have is that I refuse to accept as mine any debt I didn’t personally accrue, personally or spiritually. A debt cannot be placed on someone without their knowledge and consent. “Original Sin”? Not my problem-you want to collect on that debt, go dig up Adam and Eve.

171

Alas, I’ve never read The Moviegoer. I do like Lost, but it’s a bit dated.

My three Percy favorites- Love in the Ruins (the Adventures of a Bad Catholic at a Time near the End of the World), Lancelot, and The Second Coming (btw, neither the first nor the last are actually about the End of the World or the Second Coming, nor is the middle about Arthur’s Knight L).

Love has a lesser but OK sequel- The Thanatos Syndrome; Second was a superior sequel to The Last Gentleman, which just didn’t grab me.

172

I ain’t going to argue with that – my take on “original sin” is that we’re born into a fucked-up world and naturally pick up a fair amount of that fuckeduppedness as a part of what it means to be human; it’s something that we cannot (at least easily) escape. What I was doing was arguing against vanilla’s expressed stance, not in favor of any particular theory of the Atonement.

But try this one on for size: Glaxo Smith Kline develops a medicine that prevents death. It’s up for sale; you can buy it, at a billion dollars a dose. But if you don’t have the money… you’re beat!

But what if the son of the majority stockholder decides to make it available for free to all his friends, the cost to you being that you become his friend – and he’s said he’ll befriend anyone who wants to be his friend?

173

It sounds nice, but what about…

Does the drug ALSO arrest aging or will I continue to age as I live forever? Remember how crickets came about, according to Greco-Roman mythology? :wink:

Have you considered the economic and ecological consequences of what would happen if humans never died? If you thought social security was bad of now…

Speaking on a spiritual or moral level, I think death is a necessary part of our human existence, as much as birth is. When it comes, it should be welcomed instead of feared and denied. I also think that death is not an “end” but rather part of an ongoing cycle: birth, life, death, after-life and then rebirth. Each time we live, we learn something new and different or go over old lessons that we haven’t learned.

So no, I won’t take this new drug, but I will be friends with this guy, anyway. He sounds like a good fellow. 'Sides, long haired, bearded guys running around in pajamas preaching peace and love sound hot to me! :smiley:

174

My stance is that we are sinners, Jesus took the punishment for us, we can become guilt-free and Heaven bound just by accepting Him.

And you’re arguing against that?
To be a christian, we should agree on that fundamental truth! :eek:

175

I was raised a Christian, vanilla, and we were not taught that all you have to do is believe and you’re home free.

176

works cannot save anyone.
If you want to try, go ahead, you will fail, we all will.
The Bible disagrees with you.

Believe what you want.

177

But we weren’t taught that, either. Basically, Catholicism says that works alone won’t do it, nor will faith alone. BOTH have to be there.

And now, the Bible does not disagree-try James 2:26.

178

The problem is, believing is also a work, or a choice or an act of will, if you prefer. Certainly what you choose to believe is an action. I freely admit I’ve been a member of the Anglican church since my baptism, not long after I was born. I am also, however, one because I have chosen to be one over the years and continue to do so, just as Roger Thornhill chose not to be one or Guinastasia chose not to be a Catholic. Things have happened to me which have made remaining Anglican a good thing and one which has benefits in this world, in addition to any which may accrue in the next. Things happened to my Wiccan friend which made remaining a Christian difficult in that, as I said earlier, if he had remained a Christian, he would have wound up hating God. Someone who has been put off Christianity by what they see as Christian hypocrisy or sexism won’t choose to believe in Christ, just as I chose to continue to believe in Him because of what I see as His opposition to hyprocrisy and the way He treated women. If I’d gone to a Fundamentalist church, given my nature, I may well have chosen to reject Christianity completely and utterly.

Declaring oneself a Christian is a work or an action, just as surely as working in a soup kitchen, or arguing theology on the internet. Choosing to believe in Christ, rather than the goddess is also an act. Is someone who’s chosen to believe in Christ, yet expresses that belief by cruelly condemning those who are different and metaphorically spitting on non-Christians more worthy of heaven than someone who worships the god and goddess and expresses that belief by volunteering in a homeless shelter or working to preserve the environment?

I am afraid that if I say “only certain people get into heaven”, then, just as when I was a teenager and was told “only certain people get to come to this party”, I may find myself not allowed in. When everyone else excluded me, Christ included me. When I was looking for a place to belong, a place where there were people like me, a Wiccan and an agnostic showed me such a place. How then, can I deny such a place to them?

Reread Matthew 25:21-26 in which Christ, Himself, speaks of works. “You have my father’s blessing; come, enter and possess the kingdom that has been ready for you since the world was made. For when I was hungry, you gave me food; when thirsty, you gave me drink; when I was a stranger, you took me into your home. . . . The curse is upon you; go from my sight to the eternal fire that is ready for the devil and his angels. For when I was hungry, you gave me nothing to drink; when I thirsty, nothing to drink; when I was a stranger you gave me no home.” When I was a stranger, lost, and imprisoned by fears, a good man and woman found me, took me in, showed me love, and gave me the freedom to banish my fears. He is among the most Christian people I know. Surely it amuses God that he is a Wiccan?

CJ

179

Everyone not allowed in.
Many do not want in.

I’m still waiting for Polycarp to explain why he is against my stance on salvation.
I would think he was For salvation.
What kind of logic will he explain with?

180

Your stance on salvation condemns a man who saved my life, who spent most of this weekend helping a man I love dearly move into a new place, who I have seen do a great deal of good to everlasting torment because he is not a Christian. Your stance condemns my own father to the same fate for that matter.

Polycarp and I’ve played duelling Bible verses on the issue of salvation many times, and it’s an old, familiar tune. I think we both realize it’s not exactly mainstream Christianity, and I know I’m not expecting many people to agree with me, but it’s what I have to believe to remain a Christian.

You’re right, you know. In a way, I don’t want in. Let me explain. If God would condemn that old friend of mine to hell because he’s not a Christian, if God is like Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson depicts him and would overlook all the genuine good in another old friend because he’s a homosexual, I don’t want into a heaven run by a god like that. I once told a Fundamentalist Christian she’d successfully condemned pretty much every one I loved to hell and left me sharing heaven with her, Jerry Falwelll, and Pat Robertson. Given a choice between an eternity in heaven with those three and a lake of fire, the lake of fire’d be looking pretty good!

Despite the trappings of respectability which seem to be accumulating around me, I’m still an outcast, rebel, outsider at heart. If there is no room for others at the table, no matter how wonderful the Host, no matter how great the feast, then there can surely be no room for me.

Humbly,
CJ