Yes, you did, Lib, thanks. Sorry, I got distracted by a debate. 
So I contract with God freely, I am not held to a contract I did not assent to. It is sometimes difficult to keep different people’s conception of God straight; your conception of God is more spiritual (that’s not the right word, but I can’t think of a good one) than Poly’s, and things like covenants are set up/fufilled in different ways. Under your (God’s) system, when people love, they automatically are in heaven, right? That’s just the way things were set up, it’s not that God is holding me to a promise I never made. Poly was going over the different covenants God has had with man, and I was objecting that I never explicitly agreed to love God with all my heart, so why am I required to? (Yes, by your explanation of God I already do, but I don’t think Poly would agree.) I don’t want to get too much into depth here, I guess, since Poly already has his hands full with FoG.
Hmm… Must work on my attempts at subtle humor…
Yer putz,
Satan :wally
I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Two months, two weeks, five days, 17 hours, 22 minutes and 6 seconds.
3228 cigarettes not smoked, saving $403.62.
Life saved: 1 week, 4 days, 5 hours, 0 minutes.
Gaudere
You are incredible. Your mind is a manifold of profound comprehension on multiple levels. You would make an excellent Chief Arbiter of Libertaria. (I’ll back off now…)
LOL. But, you make it so easy, Gaudere. j.c. must have been surrounded by people like you.
Lack of spirituality is not the punishment for original sin. q.v. Gen chapter one, verses 17-19. I don’t know what this doctrine is of which Gaudere speaks.
Huh? I don’t know what she is talking about. I don’t think Judaism had the holy spirit until j.c. came back. They were a fallen away people acording to xtian belief – and when I talk of the fall of man, I mean primarily the fall of the Jews as they themselves dictated it – this doesn’t imply there weren’t people in a state of grace around the next bend, or there weren’t various other fallen people in the world. But generally this kind of thing spreads. Anyway, I would postulate the Lagrangeness of things hadn’t gelled until circa 0 BC. Otherwise j.c. could have just showed up around 7,999 years ago. I think that might be what some xtians would say but it isn’t that important.
Gaudere has it 100% backwards. If the Jews had the spirit, they wouldn’t have needed x, right?
I never said that. Gaudere keeps confusing cause and result.
As far as famine, I would say things were pretty bad at 6000BC, hence the fall. I would say things had been on a decline for 4000 years prior to this. Poverty didn’t exist before there was property, therefore, I think Gaudere is asking me to divide by zero :eek:. Help! Gaudere is trying to crash my computer!
No, that is a result of original sin, not the punishment.
Once I am convinced Gaudere understands the differences between the cause, punishment for, and results of, the fall of man, I will try to carry on a logical discussion with the entire group so everyone can participate
Poly wrote:
Well yeah, but how don’t you know it isn’t a false Jesus unless you define you terms? You might be talking about Jesus Roderiguez (no offense, Jesse) for all we know.
It would be helpful if you would explain clearly and plainly to me what the cause, punishment for, and results of, the fall of man are. Please enlighten me. It does not help me whan I point out that if everyone followed any of the “be good” religions perfectly, we could get rid of [various evil things], so why do you say only Christianity will work, and you respond with “property is theft.”
So, a guess:
Cause of Original sin: “Famine”, acc’ding to you?
What is OS: I thought it was moving away from God, according to you.
Punishment for OS: “working for unfair rewards until you perish into the dust whence you came” (I am amazed that people did not work for unfair rewards until they perished into the dust whence they came before 6000 BC)
Result of OS: [various evils]
I have to wonder, if the punishment for OS is “working for unfair…”, etc., how did this result in [various bad things]?
I am also rather confused by this: “Xtianity teaches you don’t have to suffer Original Sin (working for unfair rewards until you perish into the dust whence you came) if you follow Jesus. (Personally, I blame global warming for “original sin”, but that is another story…)” I am not sure how global warming can end up having man suffer “working for unfair rewards until you perish into the dust whence you came”.
Most of them didn’t think they did. They were just fine with their Holy Spirit and one God.
Are you saying that there was no property at around 6000BC?
Lib says:
This statement seems rather unsuited to me right now. But thank you anyway.
OK, but I’m starting a new thread. You can bring in any of my previous comments if you would like, but at this point, I’d like a fresh start.
Here is a link to the Original Sin thread.
Gaudere wrote:
Wait a minute … Judaism had/has a Holy Spirit?
I thought the whole concept of the Holy Spirit didn’t come up until the Book of Acts, in the New Testament.
It’s in the OT:
[Pss 51:10] Create in me a clean heart, O God, and put a new and right spirit within me.
[Pss 51:11.12] Cast me not away from thy presence, and take not thy holy Spirit from me.
[Isa 63:10.7] But they rebelled and grieved his holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them.
[Isa 63:11] Then he remembered the days of old, of Moses his servant. Where is he who brought up out of the sea the shepherds of his flock? Where is he who put in the midst of them his holy Spirit,
[Isa 63:12] who caused his glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses, who divided the waters before them to make for himself an everlasting name,
And don’t forget the classic:
[Gen 1:2.19] The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.
However, Jews see it as a metaphor, not an actual other being/aspect of God/whatever. The plain reading of the NT, to me, seems to be rather unclear on whether it is metaphorical or not; if I just read it without knowing any Christian theology I’d probably assume the Holy Spirit was just a metaphorical reference to God’s spirit. I have seen people claim that Jews believe in two Gods, or a diumvirate God, because of the mentions of the Holy Spirit.
FoG said:
As the scripture of David said: Bullshit. I don’t need to condemn a nonexistent entity. And I don’t need to justify myself for anything, because I haven’t done anything wrong.
Who ever said I refuse to read it? I just refuse to sit here and read your quotes when you use them as if they were facts when they are actually just thoughts out of a book. You still don’t understand that you can’t use the book of your religion to prove the beliefs of your religion. I wonder if you’ll ever understand that.
Yes, and how many more times will it need re-mentioning before you actually comprehend it?
Depends on the issue. How long will it take you to realize that your Bible isn’t the end-all be-all of the world?
But, gosh, your Bible says it is…
What part of “I don’t have beliefs like you do” don’t you understand? I accept those scientific findings with good evidence behind them. If they change, then they change. This doesn’t bother me.
Perhaps this is your biggest problem – you don’t want change. You want stability. You want a rock to anchor you. Well, I’m sorry, but some of us would rather live in reality, even if it changes once in a while.
Where am I wasting time?
And that answer is ridiculous. I haven’t hurt myself by having a thought. (Do you often injure yourself by thinking? Maybe that’s another reason for your beliefs…)
Ask Libertarian that one. I’m sure he’d love to answer.
Trust me, you’re getting through to exactly nobody here. But it’s even, because nobody’s getting through to you, either.
I guess I should expect this kind of bizarre literalism. It appears that you cannot understand simple metaphors. Sad.
Where, in your strange world, “life of sin” = “life” because you’ve already said that nobody can live without sin. And therein lies the problem.
Sure, you “think” that because the concept of nonbelief is so totally foreign to you that you cannot even concieve of somebody thinking that way. So if somebody says they think that way, you have to come up with an excuse. Subconscious blocking is as good an excuse as any, I guess.
Once again, we see how your world is 180 degrees from reality. What you’re saying is exactly what I have been saying – just from the opposite viewpoint. You only want to talk about God as if he were all good and people are evil. I point out that from another viewpoint, God is evil. You don’t want to hear that, though, so you accuse me of twisting your words and do the equivalent of plugging your ears and refusing to listen. I can just see you jumping up and down yelling, “I can’t hear you! I can’t hear you.” Of course it’s hard for you to believe that God is a tyrant – because you believe he is the ultimate good. But what you don’t understand is that you aren’t describing him as the ultimate good. You are the one who is providing this damaging description of God. Don’t blame us if you think this is twisting God’s message. Blame yourself for providing the twisted image.
Wanna take a poll on who has more credibility here?
I never said I won’t read it. I asked why you would quote it even more. I pointed out that you seem eager to quote rather than think. All of this is true.
What makes you so sure I haven’t?
Why David, if you had, you’d be a Christian. Obviously.
** shakes hands with Gaudere **
Nice debating with you. Have you got bruises on YOUR head from our banging our heads together? 
I’ll briefly (GENUINELY briefly this time) comment on a few people’s posts …
David B: sorry, I do remember seeing your mini-post when I first scrolled thru but missed it when I was doing my marathon response. Unfortunately I won’t have a whole lot to contribute to this discussion.
To the question: "What happens to the person who was a good Born-Again Christian but got hit in the head and had a change of personality because of it? Does he still go to Heaven, or does he end up in Hell? "
My answer is: “I don’t know”.
Sorry! That’s it. I really don’t. Never thought about it. If any thoughts about it come to mind I will post them.
pinqy you said: "FoG: I was duplicating your arguments, only using faeries instead of God to show you exactly how your claims appear to unbelievers. You did not tackle the logic of my position, you did not deal with how one could discover the truth of the matter. "
Actually I DID get what you were saying. Sorry my response wasn’t very detailed, but I had a few responses to type last night. Let me be more detailed so you’ll understand my argument.
Your first original statement was: "Faeries are going to kill you. I know this for sure. "
You said “I know this for sure.” But who are you? You are not the final word on fairies any more than I am the final word on Christianity (and yes, I know I’m setting myself up for some funnin’ – well go fer it ;)). My argument is that the final word on God is in the Bible.
If I choose to not believe it pinqy, it makes it no less true. If I believe something and the Bible contradicts me, guess who’s wrong? Me!
Here’s the bottom line. In today’s society, as I mentioned before, the biggest problem is that everyone believes that “right and wrong” is a matter of personal opinion. There is no objective standard for us to go by anymore. I believe that the objective standard that exists for all is the Bible. Most of you (if not all of you) on this board don’t believe that.
I’m not saying we can all just start spouting objective statements and claiming them to be true. You are basically saying – what’s the difference in you saying “Fairies are real and they want to kill you”, and me saying “God is real and loves you”.
The difference is that you’re just saying it. I’m saying what I’m saying based on an objective standard – the Bible. And no, I cannot 100% “prove” that the Bible is what it claims to be. All I can do is tell you that I believe it is what it claims to be. And I realize that can never fully satisfy someone who is seeking the truth, by itself.
pinqy, there’s a supernatural element to all of this. As I’ve said before, I can’t convince you that the Bible is real (obviously!). God has to do His part too.
The ONLY way I’ve ever seen someone begin to fully believe the Bible is when the actual transaction of salvation happens. When God literally, actually, touches someone and saves their soul and begins a deeply personal love relationship with them … in MOST cases I’ve seen, belief in the Bible just happens naturally. It’s difficult to explain. God is IN you, and HE knows the Bible is His Word! That just seeps into your soul and you know it’s His Word too. I’ve seen people instinctively get up after coming to Christ and saying, “Where can I go buy a Bible?” They just KNOW what it is!
Certain ELEMENTS of the Bible can be proven as historical fact, but the bottom line is, if a person doesn’t want to believe, it doesn’t matter how much proof you give them – they’re not going to believe. Again, a supernatural transaction must take place.
I realize this answer probably won’t satisfy you, but it’s the only one I know to give!
One other comment of yours intrigured me: "there is not even anything inherently contradictory between belief in faeries and the Bible. The Bible certainly mentions spirits and alludes to supernatural creatures. Faeries are not mentioned by name, but there is nothing that says not to believe in supernatural beings, just don’t worship other gods. "
Hmmmmmmmm. I think I’ll put this in the category of the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot. Sure, okay, whatever. Of course, whether you’re right or wrong has no consequence for me, except for the dramatic element that they are supposedly out to kill me.
But again there’s this little matter of discernment. The Bible makes it plain that “no weapon formed against you shall prosper”. There is also the fact that while the Bible doesn’t say faeries don’t exist, it doesn’t say they do either. So, cough, while I guess TECHNICALLY this is a “grey area”, it’s a “grey area” in the same vein that I could also say “I believe giant 4-foot tall roaches live beneath the surface of the earth.” People can say they believe in anything. What is their belief based on?
Again, I know it won’t satisfy you, but there it is anyway!
Satan, I’ll give a brief response to you and some of the others next.
Tracer wrote:
See: Jesus, Baptism of. In John, I think? As far as j.c. sending the spirit among his followers to guide them after his death though, yep, that is it.
But, Gaudere, I don’t know if the Jews believed in a holy binity. It is possible, and it would sure be interesting. So many Protestant sects give the rest of the “tree” so much heck about the Trinity, it would be nice to say “read 'em and weep.”
David wrote:
It DOES? 
Aw, give us a cite.
Hee hee. Boy FoG, you just keep walking into these!
I have to theorize, by the fact Friend continues on so, is that he wants to be gotten through to. If you want to be pointed on the path to true salvation Friend, I can help.
Yes, this is the major Protestant heresy, really. Friend – you can live a life without sin. It takes time for God to transform your soul, but it can be done.
Friend wrote
Remember the parable of the farmer planting the seeds, Friend. Sometimes the devil gets his due. There’s no conscious level to this.
David wrote:
Well, he should have said the devil, to be precise
See Friend? Once you define God as super-double-all-powerful, you set yourself up for this too. Again, your heresies yield no fruit. I warned you!
Just one more attempt to help FoG. He’s trying so hard in the face of such odds I can’t help it. I remember a toy robot I had as a kid. It would walk along until it bopped into a wall. Then, it would bounce back a little. Then it would bounce back into the wall again. And even though it was a machine stuck in its ways, and even though I knew that there in the basement, should I turn it around again, it would eventually run into a wall again, well, I still turned it.
Therein lies your problem. The clear majority people who call themselves christians do not believe this. You must read the Bible in light of the Holy Spirit. This is not some thing that came to you automatically with baptism. You’ve got to work for it. Beats me how, but I hope that helps.
Satan in an attempt to be brief I will try to respond to your main point:
"Do I need to point out the many times believers transgressed? You seem to be saying that the moment someone says, “I accepy Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior” that they suddenly get changed, or even over time are changed.
Sorry, but no. We’re all sinners, remember? Accepting this fact does nothing to eliminate the sin. Oh, sure, some believers modify their behavior. But not all, and far, far less motify their desires. "
Sorry, but yes. Here’s the scripture that explains this, which comes right after the verse I quoted earlier about those who are perfect forever being made holy:
“The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: ‘This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.’ Then He adds: ‘Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.’” (Heb 10: 15-17)
Also, read Psalm 150 and you will see a guy who is flat out in love with God’s truth.
To the line “We’re all sinners, remember?”, it might surprise you to know that I disagree with this statement. New Creation means New Creation. This is a HUGE concept that fills an entire book on my bookshelf (titled: Birthright - Christian, Do You Know Who You Are?).
MANY genuine born-again Christians would say “I’m just a sinner saved by grace”, but I wouldn’t say that. I would say “I WAS a sinner, I was saved by His grace, and He’s made me a saint!” WHO I AM is now defined by the perfect God who now lives inside my soul. If you get around Christian circles for long, you will hear this teaching referred to with the catchphrase, “Who We Are In Christ”.
One of the biggest ways for a Christian to defeat sin is to realize who they are. I know of a man who had been an alcoholic before salvation, who walked into a bar and was tempted to go back to his old ways. As he sat at the bar about to order, he stopped and realized, “This is not who I am. I am the righteousness of Christ.” He turned and left and hasn’t taken a drink since.
Obviously MANY questions are raised, such as “But what about the sins I still commit?” and “How can I call myself a saint when …”. Again it’s a lengthy teaching but it is scripturally based and solid from what I can tell.
One other line you said was “some believers modify their behavior”. I don’t even agree with this. Believers have one choice … submit their desires and their behaviors to Christ and let HIM change them. “Trying hard” to change is one of the big deceptions that Christians fall for. One of the whole points of Christianity is that only through Christ can our desires AND actions be changed to be Godly. So I CANNOT “modify my behavior”. GOD can modify my heart and then I will naturally want to do the right thing because He has changed me.
You said that not all believers modify their behavior and few modify their desires. I beg to differ. While the Bible says you are NOT saved by your works, it also says there will be obvious, visible evidence from your life that you have given your heart to Christ. True, not every believer in the course of their life will always fully understand how God wants to change them in every area … but change is available to all believers.
Case in point: a dear co-worker came to Christ about 2 months ago. Without my saying anything specific to her at all (or any other believers saying anything to her), she bought a Bible, began studying it, and realized that living with her boyfriend was wrong. About a month after her salvation she moved out (not to mention, she gained tremendous self-respect. The guy she was with was a major jerk). She started attending a healthy, Bible-believing church. It just HAPPENS if you truly come to Christ.
This is a good way to spot “false conversion”. Many times, in their zeal to lead people to Christ, many Christians have made the awful mistake of “leading someone in a prayer” who wasn’t REALLY ready to give their hearts to Christ. They still wanted to run their own life and didn’t understand the full implications. The test, as Jesus said, is ‘by your fruits you shall know them’. Wasn’t it Guadere who wanted to know what that meant a while back? Well, now you know. A change of heart will produce actions consistant with the Bible, unprovoked by anyone.
Okay, that ends my response to Satan.
Esprix … once I’m done with this post, I’ll send you an email.
Polycarp,
Let me briefly respond to 2 comments.
You said: "For reasons known only to Him, He gave no clear evidence of Himself to a person welcoming such evidence in good faith and openness, and willing to undergo full Christian discipleship if called to do so by the results of the experiment. "
I am curious what experiment this person did. I obviously don’t know the full circumstances. God HAS revealed Himself in “big dramatic ways” at times throughout history, but that is generally not the way He operates. However, I don’t know if that’s what your friend was looking for.
You also said: “Further, by dwelling on the “all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God” aspect of our faith, you are making God seem like a sadistic psychopath intent on punishing everyone from Cain to the present for their nature, who was bought off by the death in agony of his son, who created a world that, according to your probable viewpoint, contains lies about his work in creation, who demands intellectual adherence to a contrary-to-the-evidence-or-to-logic philosophic structure as the price of being spared eternal torture.”
I think what you’re getting at (correct me if I’m wrong) is that I’ve only been showing the “justice” side of God, and none of the “mercy” and “love” side. Perhaps that’s true. Maybe I’ve mistakenly zeroed in on one aspect of God’s goodness and neglected the others. Obviously I don’t agree with any of the conclusions you’ve drawn, but I think what you’re trying to say is that I have emphasized aspects of God that, if slightly warped, can lead people to the conclusions you’ve drawn. Ie, maybe I need a more “balanced” approach. I think you might be right. Hmmmmmm…I’ll have to consider how to balance this out.
As for your points about John 3:16, I will defer to jmullaney’s brief but accurate rebuttal as the same one I would basically have given.
As I kept scrolling I came across your later two quotes:
"Because the one key point that FriendofGod and I agree on, which makes this debate worth continuing for me, is that the Christian life subsists in an allegiance to a Person, not, at rock bottom, in adherence to tenets of dogma. "
AND
"It’s radical followership of Jesus that counts. And FoG will agree without reservation to that statement, whatever else in my posts he finds to disagree with. "
clap clap clap
Just wanted to confirm that you are indeed correct. My love for Jesus Himself is at the heart of it all. I needed that. Thank you Polycarp. Good to know it’s not ALL antagonism out there in StraightDopeLand! 
Now,
David B …
I think I’m going to follow Guadere’s lead and bow out. This is pointless and we’re getting nowhere. You think it’s your job to convince me, and vice versa, and it’s never gonna end. As Guadere said, I think you probably know what I’d say to most of your quotes (although if you REALLY want specifics I’ll provide them).
I will make one exception by commenting on ONE thing you said:
I said: “How long did it take to discover the world wasn’t flat after all?”
You said: "But, gosh, your Bible says it is… "
Wrong. This is one of the zillions of areas where science finally caught up to what the Bible had been saying all along.
Isaiah 40:22 starts out “He sits enthroned above the CIRCLE OF THE EARTH . . .”
Skeptics such as yourself, for years, pointed out this scripture as clear proof that the Bible couldn’t be the Word of God since it had such an inaccurate assumption. Eventually, science figured out the truth that had been there all along.
That’s it for now. Catch you guys later.
jmullaney:
[url=“http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm”]The Earth Is Flat[/uurl], or, as the couple on their Honeymoon cruise said, “God said it. I believe it. That settles iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii…”
Yer putz,
Satan :wally
TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Two months, two weeks, six days, 5 hours, 16 minutes and 41 seconds.
3248 cigarettes not smoked, saving $406.10.
Life saved: 1 week, 4 days, 6 hours, 40 minutes.
Yer putz,
Satan :wally
TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Two months, two weeks, six days, 5 hours, 30 minutes and 21 seconds.
3249 cigarettes not smoked, saving $406.15.
Life saved: 1 week, 4 days, 6 hours, 45 minutes.
So I say that even believers of Christ are not necessaril;y changed people, that many of them do very un-Christ-like things, and the response I got was:
**
Well, this does not say they DON’T do these acts. It simply says they are forgiven. Not a great consequence to someone who is affected in some way by the sin, I don’t think.
**
And this has to do with reality… How? You want I should bring up the numerous times I have seen supposed spirit-filled people not act like it, from that kid who shot up a school to the asshole in the gaz-guzzling SUV who cut me off and flicked me off on my last tripo to Ohio, and then sped off at considerably higher than the posted speed?
**
It does surprise me. Are you saying there are people who are free from sin? Well, let them cast the first stone then… After you point them out to me, thanks…
**
Well, seeing as this goes against the very tenets of your professed religion, I don’t know whether you really don’t know what you are talking about, or you are actually showing some free-thought.
Unfortunately, even if it’s the latter, you just invented the Edsel. Forgiveness of sins does not mean they didn’t happen.
**
You know what? I tried that one on LBMB. I said, you know, I’m pro-choice and I am not going to change that. I was told the spirit wiould change me. Uh, nope.
You know, I have sex with my fiancee. I love her, and I am going to marry her, and I feel we already are married. This is not bad, and in fact, I feel closer to God when I am making love to her than any other times in my life.
But the book says it’s wrong and a sin.
You want I should go on?
You want I should bring up the many so-called Christians who do sinful things even with the spirit inside them?
And what of the abortionist killers, huh? I realize this is a fringe person, but facts is facts - some people even feel their sins are JUSTIFIED and even MANDATED by God.
What separates you from THEM, FoG?
My guess would be, not that much.
And I like a wide gap between myself and thos etypes. Personally speaking, of course…
**
One does not need religion to reach these defining moments. Sure, if it helps, I’m all for it. But don’t try and sell me that it’s the only way towards self-esteem. Hell, I could tell you a ton of stories about people whose self-esteem was totally sucked away by people constantly telling them they were a sinner, a horrible sinner, and they don’t deserve anything but shit, but God will forgive you.
So let me ask you something here: Ever read any other spiritual books besides the Bible? Specifically books on Judaism, the Koran, books on Asian religious philosophy and the like?
Please do tell me them, what you got out of them, and what led you to reading them (and rejecting them, if that was the case).
Yer putz,
Satan :wally
TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Two months, two weeks, six days, 5 hours, 54 minutes and 43 seconds.
3249 cigarettes not smoked, saving $406.23.
Life saved: 1 week, 4 days, 6 hours, 45 minutes.