Christianity and Love, Part 2

[David_B]

FoG said:

To the question: "What happens to the person who was a good Born-Again Christian but got hit in the head and had a change of personality because of it? Does he still go to Heaven, or does he end up in Hell? "
My answer is: “I don’t know”.

Sorry! That’s it. I really don’t. Never thought about it. If any thoughts about it come to mind I will post them.

Don’t apologize! It’s actually nice to see you admit that there is something religion-related that you don’t think you know! I’m sure your first instinct is to get your answer by studying the Bible and the Bible alone, but please – think about this one instead.

Regarding the flat Earth question asked by jmullaney and FriendofGod – the funny thing is that FoG actually used a Biblical quote that is one that proves the Earth is flat! Newsflash, FoG: A circle is flat. If it had been the sphere of the Earth, you might have had a point, but it said circle. So thanks for helping me make my point.

Satan already pointed to one website about this. But here is the info. The late Isaac Asimov wrote an article about this subject, “The Circle of the Earth.” It is some 15 pages long, but I’ve done my best to summarize it.

In Isaiah 40:22, the Bible (King James version) says, “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth…” A circle, as you well know, is a two-dimensional figure; a sphere would be the proper three-dimensional structure. Obviously, the Earth is a sphere (well, pretty close) NOT a circle.

Another verse to the same effect is a passage in the Book of Proverbs, 8:27. “When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth.”

A compass draws a circle – a flat circle. So, as Asimov says, “we can imagine God marking out the flat, circular disk of the world in this fashion.” But even “compass” is not the best translation from the Hebrew. The Revised Standard Version of the Bible has the verse as: “When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep.” It’s even more specifically a flat circle.

As other evidence, the rest of the Isaiah 40:22 cited earlier says, “…that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.” As we know, a tent is a piece of material “spread outward above and then down on all sides until it touches the ground. A tent is NOT a spherical structure that surrounds a smaller spherical structure. No tent in existence has ever been that.” (I.A.) And, of course, the ground underneath a tent is flat. Thus, according to this verse, humans live inside the tent of the heavens, on the flat Earth.

Now, of course with a flat Earth, what keeps everything from falling? Well, it rests on something. The Bible does mention, rather casually, what the Earth rests upon. Asimov contends that the Bible doesn’t go into more detail because everybody in the time period when it was written was assumed to “know” that the Earth is flat, the heavens are a tent, and the Earth rests upon pillars. But, like I said, there is a casual mention.

In the 38th chapter of Job, Job questions God about injustice and evil. God says to him, "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if
thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the cornerstone thereof? (Job 38:4-6)

So, what are these “foundations”? Well, since the Bible writers had never even heard of such things as mantle and the liquid iron core of the earth, and since they NEVER refer to the regions under the Earth’s surface as composed of rock and metal, it obviously isn’t that. So, we must come to the conclusion that the “foundations” of the Earth are the objects upon which the flat Earth rests.

Elsewhere in the Book of Job, Job says about God, “The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.” So, it looks like we’ve found the “foundations” – the “pillars of heaven.”

There was more to the article, mostly dealing with hell below the circle of the Earth, but I think the point about the Earth being flat according to a literalist reading of the Bible has been made.

[Czarcasm]

David, that’s not how you’re supposed to play the “Bible Game”.
Rule #1. Everything in the Bible is the literal truth.
Rule #2. Anything proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be false becomes a parable or an alagory.
Rule #3. All contradictions in the Bible are explained thusly: of the two passages given, one is literal and one is parable. Which-is-which is to be determined by what the “True Believer” currently believes, and can be changed at whim.
Rule #4. In the event that a passage is proven false, and yet cannot be ruled a parable, the said passage shall be called a “Mystery of God”. Unlike “Mystery of Scooby Doo”, “Mystery of God” means “I don’t have to admit jack because my god is gonna kick your ass when you die, you heathen!”

If you follow these simple rules, all of your questions about the bible can be answered.

[Polycarp]

Lib…no, I’m not still in touch with Glitch; I wish I were. But I’ve considered him a friend since we first started posting, and his absence from the board does not affect whether I still consider him a friend.

Lib. or David B., would you be so kind as to post a link to the “Glitch Tries to Communicate with God” part of the debate; I think it was part of the marathon “Is Atheism a Religion” series of threads. It might be beneficial for Friend of God to review what went on in it. And may give him some perspective on how people besides his social circle really think.

J Mullaney and Friend of God, I’m going to say this once more, with feeling: “God’s love is available to anyone who is willing to receive it, just as they are, without any stipulations. Unconditional love. The kind one aspires to and never quite gets there. That is the key point to be found in the first four books of the New Testament, and why they are called Gospels and not polemic biographies of Jesus. Because that is Good News.”

Does finding this out lead to changed behavior, churchmanship, and such? Ordinarily, yes. But as a consequence, not as a condition. Love begets love. And love responds in love. Don’t go to church because God expects it. Go to church because you love God, and you encounter Him there. And so on.

More later…

[Liberal]

And excuse me, but what possible rational argument can you use to argue that “if no one is hurt, it must be okay”? I’d REALLY like to hear this one.

---

Ask Libertarian that one. I’m sure he’d love to answer.

Will God, in making His judgements, turn to any of us for advice?

Protect men from the coercion and fraud of other men. Leave God to judge their hearts.

Poly

I don’t think it was the Atheist Religion series. I think it was something else, around the time that the LBMB invasion began to taper off.

[Gaudere]

jmullaney:

But, Gaudere, I don’t know if the Jews believed in a holy binity. It is possible, and it would sure be interesting. So many Protestant sects give the rest of the “tree” so much heck about the Trinity, it would be nice to say “read 'em and weep.”

I specifically said that Jews thought of the Holy Spirit as a metaphor for God’s Spirit, not another deity/aspect. However, I have seen certain people (non-Jews) claim the Jews had a diumvirate God, despite what the Jews themselves say about the issue.

[jmullaney]

**
J Mullaney and Friend of God, I’m going to say this once more, with feeling: “God’s love is available to anyone who is willing to receive it, just as they are, without any stipulations.”
**

Since God is Love, God loves everything. By definition. What is your point? Oh wait, that is what the thread is about! Well, I guess that finishes that…

[Liberal]

Since God is Love, God loves everything.

Oh, me achin’ 'ead.

I hope you haven’t confused love with pity.

[Polycarp]

David, that’s not how you’re supposed to play the “Bible Game”.
Rule #1. Everything in the Bible is the literal truth.
Rule #2. Anything proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be false becomes a parable or an alagory.
Rule #3. All contradictions in the Bible are explained thusly: of the two passages given, one is literal and one is parable. Which-is-which is to be determined by what the “True Believer” currently believes, and can be changed at whim.
Rule #4. In the event that a passage is proven false, and yet cannot be ruled a parable, the said passage shall be called a “Mystery of God”. Unlike “Mystery of Scooby Doo”, “Mystery of God” means “I don’t have to admit jack because my god is gonna kick your ass when you die, you heathen!”

If you follow these simple rules, all of your questions about the bible can be answered.

Gee, slythe, you must have used your mighty Moderator powers to get access to the locked-off forum at LDMB! Better watch out; remember the problems David had.

[Esprix]

David B wrote:

You still don’t understand that you can’t use the book of your religion to prove the beliefs of your religion.

Kinda like using a word to describe that same word in the dictionary. “‘Flamingo’ means, well… flamingo!”

Esprix

[Polycarp]

I really didn’t want to get into the theory of the Holy Trinity. But it looks like it’s called for by the
Gaudere/JM series of posts.

1. Judaism (and Islam) posit one omnipotent God, accept no subsitutes. The Shema handles this in full detail: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord Your God, the Lord is One…” Unary. Not binary or trinary. This God has, of course, multifarous aspects: his Wisdom, his Lovingkindness (chesed), his Word, his Spirit. These are all characteristics of one God. God’s Wisdom is personified in various wisdom writings, e.g., later chapters of Proverbs, Ecclesiasticus, Wisdom of Solomon. But this no more makes Wisdom into a separate god than does printing out a post of David B.'s and claiming I have the Holy Post of David.

In Judaistic thought, God pours out his Wisdom on the sages, his Spirit on Moses and the Prophets, his Whatever on the whoever needs it. But it is one God who does this.

Mark was, apparently, content with this viewpoint, and pictured Jesus as the wonder-working Son of God, the Messiah promised by Him. Enter John.

John sees in Jesus the eternal Word of God, through which (whom) all things were made. “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us.” Oops. What’s the connection here? How is Jesus, son of Mary, in some way an aspect of God?

Then the Holy Spirit is experienced as God working within human spirits – souls, minds, hearts (metaphorically, not cardiac), etc. And seems to have a persona of his own.

A wide collection of Greek scholars attacked this concept with appropriate theory and heresy after heresy. Net result was the concept that there is one God, with a single ousia – Godhead or “substance” – with three distinct hypostases – “persons.” In using the last word, one must bear in mind that to any Greek or Roman the term would immediately bring to mind the persona – the mask worn by an actor to betoken the role he was playing, with one actor capable of undertaking multiple roles. For a Greek, Jesus was God playing the role of Messiah – Christ. And the Holy Spirit is a distinct persona through which God plays the role of spiritual guide and strengthener in the Christian life within the faithful.

The distinction between the Descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and all the O.T. and Gospel cites of the Holy Spirit at work is that he operated “retail” – investing specific people with specific wisdom and prophecy – prior to Pentecost, where he “opened a wholesale branch” and is available to every Christian. (Many of whom don’t seem to make much use of him.:()

I assume that is not particularly coherent, but it’s the best job I can do on explaining it in a few paragraphs. When in doubt, refer to Slythe’s rules – “it’s a Mystery!”

[David_B]

Poly said:

But this no more makes Wisdom into a separate god than does printing out a post of David B.'s and claiming I have the Holy Post of David.

Well, if you first sneeze on it and I say, “Bless you,” then you could claim that.

[FriendofGod]

I am NOT having a good day. I just spent 30-45 mins typing a LENGTHY response to Satan, and a response to David and Polycarp … and I hit CLEAR FIELDS instead of SUBMIT REPLY!!! AHHHHHHHH!!!
Sigh … I will see if I have time later tonite to try again.

[David_B]

Personally, I think Satan possessed your mouse and made you do that.

[Liberal]

Follow Jesus’ example, and save often.

[jmullaney]

Libertarian wrote:

**

Since God is Love, God loves everything.

Oh, me achin’ 'ead.

I hope you haven’t confused love with pity.
**

Pity the weak and fear the strong, I’ve always said. But make sure you know which is which!!

Polycarp, thanks for your erudite explanation of the Trinity. I could not have done better myself. But I think explaining the aspects of God as merely him wearing a mask might gloss over that Jesus was human and had certain human limitations. While the scriptures say Jesus could do miracles in the physical realm, FoG thinks he is a time-traveler and Libertarian postulated Jesus had psychic powers in the Original Sin thread. Such beliefs can easily be used to warp whole sections of scripture and are thus dangerous to the faith, IMHO.

[Liberal]

Jesus is God.

[FriendofGod]

David B said: “Personally, I think Satan possessed your mouse and made you do that.”
The actual entity or the POSTER with that name?!? After all, HE’s the one I was responding to! (JK)
Okay … let me see if I can reiterate what I had typed out earlier today that got raptured. (A little LBMB lingo there :D)

Satan … I knew I shouldn’t have brought up the whole “Who We Are in Christ” thing without explaining it further. I will attempt to do just that later in this post.

Here is the verse I quoted one more time:
“The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: ‘This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.’ Then He adds: ‘Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.’” (Heb 10: 15-17)

Read carefully what it says. ‘I will put my laws in their hearts.’ ‘I will write them on their minds.’ In other words, when you come to Christ, He changes you on the INSIDE. Yes the last line says you’re forgiven, but it’s more than that. He CHANGES your desires!

This is what I mean by reversing original sin. Before I came to Christ, my whole life was LEANING in the direction of sin. The DEFAULT of my life was sin. When you come to Christ, God gives you a NEW heart, and you suddenly find yourself LEANING toward righteousness and Godly living! He literally rewrites your heart!

Here’s a silly analogy. If you don’t like it, just skip this paragraph. Your old heart is like a computer running Windows 95 or Windows 98 (work with me here, really!). It crashes frequently and is unreliable. It, ah, seems like it’s AIMED toward crashing! Then God comes along, FDISKs and Formats your hard drive, and installs Windows 2000 or Linux. Suddenly, you have SECURITY! And STABILITY! (I just couldn’t resist, please forgive me for being such a computer geek! :))

Okay, back to normality. A Christian has a heightened awareness of their sin that a nonChristian doesn’t. Someone who doesn’t know Christ sins and just considers it part of their life – they don’t even see it as sinful necessarily. A Christian, however, becomes AWARE of their sins and their DESIRE turns toward getting AWAY from sin. They don’t WANT to sin like before.

This is not to say, of course, that a Christian doesn’t sin. “If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.” (I John 1:10). Christians do sin, but their overall DIRECTION in life is aimed at Godliness.

Having said all of that … again, a Christian’s HEART is changed at salvation. HOWEVER, there should be obvious life-changing FRUIT that accompanies this change of heart if it is real, according to the Bible. And I’ve never once seen a case where there wasn’t.

I gave one example in my earlier post. Satan, you said in response “don’t try and sell me that it’s the only way towards self-esteem.” Actually, that wasn’t my main point although it was one of them. My point was: she INSTINCTIVELY knew that she had to stop sleeping with her boyfriend. No one told her to, no one quoted her a Bible verse. God was living in her now and she just KNEW! She KNEW to go to a Godly church, and she KNEW to buy a good Bible! It just HAPPENS because a genuine, supernatural change has occurred. It’s not called “conversion” for nothing!

But make no mistake about it … the change is different for different people. I know one lady in Atlanta who came to Christ and gave up smoking the same day, and has never returned to it. I know ANOTHER lady, ALSO from Atlanta, who still struggles with smoking to this day, but who gave up cursing the day she got saved! I know another couple who were living in immorality the day they came to Christ, and it wasnt until 3-4 months later that they realized it was wrong and moved into separate apartments. Again, you don’t learn EVERYthing instantaneously, but there should be SOME kind of obvious change in the person if the conversion was real. For some it’s very simple – a new love for the Bible. I’ve known some that just suddenly started devouring it for weeks and weeks like someone who’d never had a spiritual meal.
Now, a Christian has to continually stay in fellowship with God to walk in the Spirit on a day to day basis. I’ve heard one preacher say a line that I love: “The Christian life isn’t HARD … it’s just IMPOSSIBLE!” That’s true. I can’t live the Christian life without Christ! And if I let my relationship with Christ slip, consequently my actions slip.

Regarding the two people you referred to who didn’t act very Christlike … either they were letting their relationship with God slip, or they weren’t necessarily Christians! It doesn’t sound like you knew either of them. What makes you so sure they WERE Christians? Did they have a t-shirt or bumper sticker or something? How much proof is that!!!
Now, regarding “who we are in Christ” … it’s all about IDENTITY. The Bible calls believers “saints”. Now, I’ll just tell you truthfully I don’t feel like a saint and doubt I ever will. I don’t know any believer that does feel like a saint. Yet the Bible calls us this! How can that be?
Our spirit is WHO WE ARE. Before we knew Christ, our spirits were dead and empty and full of sin, thus we were SIN-ners. Now Christ lives in our spirit, and we’re saints, because HE is a saint! Again, it’s identity. WHO I AM “In Christ” is a saint. When I sin, I am forgetting “who I am”. One of the points of this teaching is to give Christians confidence that they don’t “have” to sin since they gave their hearts to Christ. Yes they WILL sin, but they don’t “have” to anymore! They have a new power and desire and can walk in a Godly way.

By the way this is NOT a new teaching in Christian circles. It’s been around for decades, but there are still many Christians who haven’t heard it. If taught right, in a balanced way, it can change the life of a believer forever!

There’s obviously TONS more to this whole point, but that’s the gist of it.

OKAY … Satan I will comment on a few more specifics you said.

One, you said: "some people even feel their sins are JUSTIFIED and even MANDATED by God. What separates you from THEM, FoG? "
Well, then those are very simply very misguided and wrong people! The Bible never justifies sin and neither do I. That’s what separates me from them.
Your last question:
“Ever read any other spiritual books besides the Bible?”

Not as many as I would have liked. I did study the cults in depth years ago during High School just to be aware of their deceptions.

The one other “spiritual book” I’ve read extensively is the Bhavad-Gita (and I’m fairly certain I’m mangling the spelling. Anyone who wants to correct me, feel free).

During my Freshman year in college (1984-85), my English professor referred to this book EVERY DAY nearly all semester long. His point? That the Bhavad-Gita made the SAME points that Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount made. He would almost have a “quote of the day” – he would quote a line of Jesus from the SotM, and then a similar line from the Bhavad-Gita. His point was that all religions basically teach the same thing and that you can’t distinguish between them.

I looked up and studied every one of the quotes he gave us in the Bhavad-Gita. In EVERY case, if you just kept reading, you would read two or three sentences that directly contradicted the core of Jesus’ teaching in the Sermon on the Mount.

That is just like Satan (the REAL one mind you, not the poster with that name!). He knows that lies BY THEMSELVES have no power. You ALWAYS must mix in a little truth with the lie to make the lie sound really good and to give it power. I think every religion mixes in a little truth just to make it sound good.

So anyway, our final exam day came, and surprise surprise – the main points for our test came from an essay question. We had to compare and contrast the Bhavad-Gita and the Sermon on the Mount.

Anyone wanna guess what I did?

I decimated the poor professor’s entire argument. Proved him wrong, line by line, precept upon precept. And he was very fair to me … he gave me an A!

End of story!

Brief response to David regarding “circle of the earth”
I think this is very simple. David, even though I cognitively know that the earth is a sphere, to be honest I NEVER think in terms like that. When I see an image of the earth from the space shuttle, I think “circle”, not “sphere”. If someone asked me the shape of the earth, I’d say “a circle”. The Bible speaks in simple terms, and I don’t have any problem with it being called a “circle”. I somehow think you will though!
Another comment of yours: "It’s actually nice to see you admit that there is something religion-related that you don’t think you know! "
Thanks, but for the record, if you look back at my debate with Gaudere, there were QUITE a few times I didn’t have an answer for things. I’ve never claimed to be all-knowing Dave, there’s only one who can lay claim to that … it’s that guy you say doesn’t exist ;).

Also: "I’m sure your first instinct is to get your answer by studying the Bible and the Bible alone, but please – think about this one instead. "
You’re implying that studying the Bible doesn’t INVOLVE thinking! Everything I’ve said on this board came after years of study and thought.
Polycarp: regarding what you said to me and Jmullaney, I have no disagreement. You seem to think I do. What gives?
Okay. THIS time I saved this as a notepad file before posting it. NOW do you see why I was so frustrated earlier?

Have a good evening and fourth of July, all.

[David_B]

FoG said:

Brief response to David regarding “circle of the earth”
I think this is very simple. David, even though I cognitively know that the earth is a sphere, to be honest I NEVER think in terms like that. When I see an image of the earth from the space shuttle, I think “circle”, not “sphere”. If someone asked me the shape of the earth, I’d say “a circle”.

And you’d be wrong. So you’re saying the Bible is wrong? Or that God doesn’t know the difference between a circle and a sphere? Or that this is the best rationalization you could come up with?

Because, think about it – if “circle” could mean “sphere,” how do we know that the six “days” of creation were really days? Maybe they were actually millions of years each. And maybe the rest of that story isn’t meant to be literal, either.

The Bible speaks in simple terms, and I don’t have any problem with it being called a “circle”.

If the Bible speaks in simple terms, how can it be literally true? You can’t have it both ways.

I’ve never claimed to be all-knowing Dave, there’s only one who can lay claim to that … it’s that guy you say doesn’t exist .

Huh? I’ve never claimed that I don’t exist…

You’re implying that studying the Bible doesn’t INVOLVE thinking! Everything I’ve said on this board came after years of study and thought.

I have an incredible urge to make a smart-ass remark about that, especially considering your comments essentially saying that a circle and a sphere are the same where the Bible is concerned. But I’ll refrain. This time.

[Holly]

FriendofGod:

That is just like Satan (the REAL one mind you, not the poster with that name!). He knows that lies BY THEMSELVES have no power. You ALWAYS must mix in a little truth with the lie to make the lie sound really good and to give it power. I think every religion mixes in a little truth just to make it sound good.

I’m picturing a pointy-eared devil wearing an apron and standing in front of the stove. He stirs the soup, tastes it, then picks up a little jar labelled “truth” and measures a quarter teaspoon into the pot.

Do you include your religion in your above statement, FoG? If not, why? Why is your religion “the truth” and every other is just lies with a dash of truth deliberately thrown in to enhance the deception?

[Monty]

Okay … let me see if I can reiterate what I had typed out earlier today that got raptured. (A little LBMB lingo there :D)

Don’t worry; there’s absolutely no doubt you’re one of the denizens of the pounder board - same lack of critical review, same lack of examination of own view.

Satan … I knew I shouldn’t have brought up the whole “Who We Are in Christ” thing without explaining it further. I will attempt to do just that later in this post.

Perhaps you’d realize by now some of the posters here don’t give a hoot about what someone who’s been dead for about 2000 years supposedly said. After all, there is the minor problem of contradictions in the story.

Here is the verse I quoted one more time:
“The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: ‘This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.’ Then He adds: ‘Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.’” (Heb 10: 15-17)

Interesting theory: quoting something automatically makes it true. Let’s try this one from the Quran: “Do you say of God what you know not?”

Read carefully what it says. ‘I will put my laws in their hearts.’ ‘I will write them on their minds.’ In other words, when you come to Christ, He changes you on the INSIDE. Yes the last line says you’re forgiven, but it’s more than that. He CHANGES your desires!

Literally, that’s not what it says. Try again with the literalist view since you say the script is inerrant.

This is what I mean by reversing original sin.

Yet another reason I’m glad of the LDS teaching that folks are only punished for their own sins, not that of Adam.

Before I came to Christ, my whole life was LEANING in the direction of sin. The DEFAULT of my life was sin. When you come to Christ, God gives you a NEW heart, and you suddenly find yourself LEANING toward righteousness and Godly living! He literally rewrites your heart!

Interesting. Now your theory is that you’re being punished because of the potential of doing something wrong.

Here’s a silly analogy.

As opposed to the silly anologies you’ve already been providing?

If you don’t like it, just skip this paragraph.

Nope, can’t do that. You threw it out here and now you’ll have to see the responses to it.

Your old heart is like a computer running Windows 95 or Windows 98 (work with me here, really!). It crashes frequently and is unreliable. It, ah, seems like it’s AIMED toward crashing! Then God comes along, FDISKs and Formats your hard drive, and installs Windows 2000 or Linux. Suddenly, you have SECURITY! And STABILITY! (I just couldn’t resist, please forgive me for being such a computer geek! :))

My heart hasn’t been crashing at all. So far, the only three serious problems I’ve had were ruptured appendix, tonsillectomy, and pneumo-thorax. Heart’s kicking along quite well.

Okay, back to normality.

Why start now?

A Christian has a heightened awareness of their sin that a nonChristian doesn’t.

Oh, please. I’d have to say that a devout Buddhist has more awareness of that since said Buddhist is a follower of the Eightfold Path. Not even a nice try there.

Someone who doesn’t know Christ sins and just considers it part of their life – they don’t even see it as sinful necessarily. A Christian, however, becomes AWARE of their sins and their DESIRE turns toward getting AWAY from sin. They don’t WANT to sin like before.

So you’re saying that until someone’s told how rotten he is, he doesn’t know that he’s rotten. Anyway, your book’s contention already is that sin is the normal state of mortality. So tell me again why someone wants to punish himself for normality.

This is not to say, of course, that a Christian doesn’t sin. “If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.” (I John 1:10). Christians do sin, but their overall DIRECTION in life is aimed at Godliness.

So if you’re not a believer then it doesn’t matter if you don’t sin, you’re going to perdition; but, if you are a beliver, it’s okay because you’re heading in the right direction. Oh, please.

Having said all of that … again, a Christian’s HEART is changed at salvation. HOWEVER, there should be obvious life-changing FRUIT that accompanies this change of heart if it is real, according to the Bible. And I’ve never once seen a case where there wasn’t.

Open your eyes, pal. The mirror will show you.

I gave one example in my earlier post. Satan, you said in response “don’t try and sell me that it’s the only way towards self-esteem.” Actually, that wasn’t my main point although it was one of them. My point was: she INSTINCTIVELY knew that she had to stop sleeping with her boyfriend. No one told her to, no one quoted her a Bible verse. God was living in her now and she just KNEW! She KNEW to go to a Godly church, and she KNEW to buy a good Bible! It just HAPPENS because a genuine, supernatural change has occurred. It’s not called “conversion” for nothing!

If it’s instinctive, then it wouldn’t have been a problem to begin with. Anyway, there’s no way she wasn’t exposed to your theory if she’s lived in the West for any longer than five years.

But make no mistake about it … the change is different for different people. I know one lady in Atlanta who came to Christ and gave up smoking the same day, and has never returned to it. I know ANOTHER lady, ALSO from Atlanta, who still struggles with smoking to this day, but who gave up cursing the day she got saved! I know another couple who were living in immorality the day they came to Christ, and it wasnt until 3-4 months later that they realized it was wrong and moved into separate apartments. Again, you don’t learn EVERYthing instantaneously, but there should be SOME kind of obvious change in the person if the conversion was real. For some it’s very simple – a new love for the Bible. I’ve known some that just suddenly started devouring it for weeks and weeks like someone who’d never had a spiritual meal.

Smoking’s immoral? 3-4 months? What happened to their instincts? You’re not now telling me they’re headed for perdition because they lacked instincts?

Now, a Christian has to continually stay in fellowship with God to walk in the Spirit on a day to day basis. I’ve heard one preacher say a line that I love: “The Christian life isn’t HARD … it’s just IMPOSSIBLE!” That’s true. I can’t live the Christian life without Christ! And if I let my relationship with Christ slip, consequently my actions slip.

If it’s impossible, then don’t bother us with it.

Regarding the two people you referred to who didn’t act very Christlike … either they were letting their relationship with God slip, or they weren’t necessarily Christians! It doesn’t sound like you knew either of them. What makes you so sure they WERE Christians? Did they have a t-shirt or bumper sticker or something? How much proof is that!!!

What makes you so sure you’re christian?

Now, regarding “who we are in Christ” … it’s all about IDENTITY. The Bible calls believers “saints”. Now, I’ll just tell you truthfully I don’t feel like a saint and doubt I ever will. I don’t know any believer that does feel like a saint. Yet the Bible calls us this! How can that be?

Semantics.

Our spirit is WHO WE ARE. Before we knew Christ, our spirits were dead and empty and full of sin, thus we were SIN-ners. Now Christ lives in our spirit, and we’re saints, because HE is a saint! Again, it’s identity. WHO I AM “In Christ” is a saint. When I sin, I am forgetting “who I am”. One of the points of this teaching is to give Christians confidence that they don’t “have” to sin since they gave their hearts to Christ. Yes they WILL sin, but they don’t “have” to anymore! They have a new power and desire and can walk in a Godly way.

Given your previous remarks, I think we can safely discount this.

By the way this is NOT a new teaching in Christian circles. It’s been around for decades, but there are still many Christians who haven’t heard it. If taught right, in a balanced way, it can change the life of a believer forever!

Maybe not in your circles, but in my circles, it’s not even close to the teachings.

There’s obviously TONS more to this whole point, but that’s the gist of it.

What a relief. I thought you’d make this a long story.

{snip}

Your last question:
“Ever read any other spiritual books besides the Bible?”

Not as many as I would have liked. I did study the cults in depth years ago during High School just to be aware of their deceptions.

Quite the enlightened view there. How do you know they’re not in error? After all, you didn’t approach the Bible that way – why not?

{snip}

During my Freshman year in college (1984-85), my English professor referred to this book EVERY DAY nearly all semester long. His point? That the Bhavad-Gita made the SAME points that Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount made. He would almost have a “quote of the day” – he would quote a line of Jesus from the SotM, and then a similar line from the Bhavad-Gita. His point was that all religions basically teach the same thing and that you can’t distinguish between them.

I looked up and studied every one of the quotes he gave us in the Bhavad-Gita. In EVERY case, if you just kept reading, you would read two or three sentences that directly contradicted the core of Jesus’ teaching in the Sermon on the Mount.

That is just like Satan (the REAL one mind you, not the poster with that name!). He knows that lies BY THEMSELVES have no power. You ALWAYS must mix in a little truth with the lie to make the lie sound really good and to give it power. I think every religion mixes in a little truth just to make it sound good.

So anyway, our final exam day came, and surprise surprise – the main points for our test came from an essay question. We had to compare and contrast the Bhavad-Gita and the Sermon on the Mount.

Anyone wanna guess what I did?

I decimated the poor professor’s entire argument. Proved him wrong, line by line, precept upon precept. And he was very fair to me … he gave me an A!

Guess what? I don’t believe you for a minute. You evidently haven’t decimated DB’s points.