Note to self: Eating pizza while reading tracer’s posts can be both messy and a choking hazard.
Bwa ha ha ha ha. Another unsuspecting soul falls into my trap. Now you’ll have to go get more pizza, and I own the pizza restaurant chain you got it from!
(What do you mean, “It’s not delivery, it’s DiGiorno”?!)
Greetings all. I just got an email this afternoon from the friend I referred to a few posts back. Polycarp listed a bunch of questions for him and asked for his response. Here is the email he sent me (PS - I’ll respond to the most recent posts directed at me later).
The rest of this post is from my friend:
ON POST:
I would be most interested in getting some answers, either through you or directly, from your ex-roommate HIV+ ex-gay friend. Included would be:
-
As he was growing up, did he feel desire for men/boys only, or for both men/boys and women/girls?
-
What was he looking for in the time just before he met the Lord? Was it a good time, or a serious relationship?
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Did he feel guilty about his homosexuality before meeting the Lord?
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Does he feel that God spoke to him about his homosexuality, or did he come to understand it as wrong through the guidance of his fellow Christians?
-
Does he still feel twinges of desire toward men/boys today, in the way that a happily married straight man might feel twinges of desire towards an attractive woman not his wife? If so, does he feel guilty about these?
-
What was his attitude in “knowing his wife” and knowing himself to be HIV+? Was he concerned that she might become infected? Was he given to understand in some way that she would not be?
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Does he feel that (specifically) what happened in his life would work for other gays?
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How does he feel towards those who “condone” gay sex as not necessarily sinful? How does he feel about those who advocate gay marriage?
- AND NOW MY RESPONSES:
Hello. I am the person that FriendofGod told you about who used to live as a gay man, but after asking Jesus into my life was turned around and began living a life of celibacy and new desires that don’t include following passions for physical contact with men. I will answer your questions as honestly and truthfully as I can. I numbered the questions
so I could match them to a numbered response for ease of reference. The answers follow:
-
I had to think about this one for a minute. You see I was molested at three years old, and then later at 11 through fifteen or sixteen - right at the age when puberty kicks in and natural tendencies for the opposite sex would be evident. Since I had been molested my feelings were very
confused - thanks to my molesters (i.e. pedophiles). So, since I had been dragged into same-sex scenarios I, of course, thought that was going to be my lot in life. However, I can honestly say that at 11 years I really
felt like I was in love with a 16 year old girl. I was too naive to realize it would never work with her since she was already almost at the dating age and not looking for a kid to date. Anyway, I had those feelings for her. But as the molestation continued I began to lose any hope that I might ever date much less marry a girl. -
At the time I met the Lord and invited Him into my life I had already done the bar scene and partying and bath houses and even a gay dating service years before. At the time I was in a “monogamous” relationship that had lasted 4 years. I used quotes around monogamous because we had a
three-way once and attempted a second so I don’t know how much it qualified as monogamous. Anyway, I was living with this guy in a house we rented from a lesbian (who lived in a bedroom upstairs). I actually wasn’t looking for anything new in my life. I would have to say the Lord came looking for me, and I was quite unexpecting it. -
Guilt was really not the first thing on my mind. I’d say I was more distracted than anything. Distracted by the fact that God was offering me something totally new and different in my life. I wasn’t sure if that was really what I wanted or not. By that I mean I didn’t really know what to
expect by giving my life to Him. -
That’s easy. Being gay I hadn’t bothered to go to church or seek any Christian friends. I probably knew deep down that I would feel like an outsider having committed all the sins I had. No, I was just living my life with my male partner and minding my own business. Then for about a
period of a month in late 1990 I began to feel something like a tug of war going on in my heart. I’d never felt anything like this and at first didn’t understand it - I even thought maybe I was getting sick physically. Then, after a couple of weeks, I began to realize it was God
speaking to my heart and the evil that dwelt within me didn’t like it (Yes, I believe in demonic spirits because I had let them in to my life years before). I’m not saying I was possessed, but the evil spirits had a great influence over me since I had invited them in earlier (albeit,
unknowingly). Then, one night between Christmas and New Years my gay friends and I went to a movie. This was a typical R-rated Hollywood movie, but it had the strangest opening line. It began with a scripture verse and even then, it was the very words of Jesus. The words “What does
it profit a man to gain the whole world, yet lose his own soul?” flashed upon the screen. By this time I was at a point of decision and I KNEW that God was trying to get my attention. Later that night on my bed, alone I prayed and asked God to make a miracle of my life. At that moment
I knew my heart had been changed and I had become a new creature in Christ. I admit, I didn’t really understand it all at that time and what had actually happened to me. But my desires changed - I no longer wanted to be in a gay relationship, I wanted to start going to church, I wanted
to pray, and I wanted to read the Bible. None of those desires had ever crossed my mind before with such fervor. So, to answer your question, it was God who spoke to me about my life. The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts of sin, and let me tell you I had been put on the spot and knew
I was guilty then. But His grace flowed to me and He showed me His love by giving me a new heart (desires). -
I read the posts in part III and believe Friend of God touched on this subject generally speaking. For me, thoughts of other men will come into my mind at times because this is my weakness. The enemy of God, Satan, ALWAYS attacks our weaknesses. I have to remember that these are just temptations to lure me away from my trust in God’s ability to strengthen me from giving in to any temptations. But His word says that in temptation He will provide a way of escape. It is my responsibility to ask Him for that escape when I need it and that is what I seek to do. As far as any guilt, I do not believe in feeling guilty for being tempted - that comes from outside of myself. Only if I were to act on the temptations should I feel guilty.
-
You know the old saying “One thing lead to another”? Well, I began dating my wife platonically one year after becoming born-again. For the first six weeks I didn’t tell her about my condition (I didn’t know where our relationship would be going). But then I realized it was getting serious, and I needed to be up front with her. By this time she was already in love with me, and we both decided that we would put our trust in God to show us if we should continue or not. If we continued (which we did) we were going to trust Him to protect her. Of course, I use condoms, though not all the time obviously since we have two natural-born children. My wife and children are all healthy with no positive test of HIV or any other abnormality. I didn’t feel that I had heard a specific
word from the Lord that she would or wouldn’t contract the virus, but as I said, we both are trusting that He will protect her. -
I’m not sure what specifically you are referring to unless it’s the new life that I’ve found in God through Jesus. If so, then yes, I believe it’s available and possible for any gay (or anyone for that matter) to
receive new life and hope in Jesus. I also believe that God creates everyone uniquely and consequently the steps that a person goes through to get born-again will be unique to that person’s needs at the time. So it’s really hard to say that another person could or would go through the
same scenario I did, but I imagine it could easily be very similar and still happen. -
How do I feel toward others who condone the gay life and gay marriage? The same way I feel towards the gays themselves. I love them with God’s love and hope and pray that they will come into His kingdom before it is too late for them.
I hope this answers the questions you had for me, and I pray that God will give you understanding to receive them as true and honest. Thank you for the opportunity to speak up about my own life. I’m not perfect, but with God’s help I’ll make it through this life and enter eternity without
failing Him. Remember: God helps those who CANNOT help themselves!
Sincerely,
A friend of FriendofGod
Remember: God helps those who CAN’T help themselves!
Where the HELL do I start?
Men/boys?!? To imply that homosexuality and pedophilia are one and the same is an insult to all here, and to hide behind the voice of an “ex-gay” friend is low beyond measure. I hope that Esprix tells you exactly where you can put your leading questions about guilt and guidance. 
Wow. I hardly know what to think about this except to think it’s very scary and very sad.
slythe,
Just so you know, my friend was quoting questions put to him by Polycarp. Scroll back up (or go back to page 1) and you’ll see them.
Ben:
You said: "More to the point, how stupid a command does God have to give before you start to wonder whether he’s testing you on your ability to think for yourself… "
What do you really think I’ll say to this? Obviously God is, well, GOD! There’s no such thing as a stupid command He gives.
As to your obvious attempt at twisting Chocobo’s words, to be honest, it really is obvious and I didn’t want to waste time pointing out what you can read for yourself. But if you insist:
Chocobo said: “If you look at the Deuteronomy and Numbers passages together, they speak to similar subjects: what to do with women you capture in war. In Deut. it says to take them into your home, allow them a grieving period, then take them as your wife. Husband-wife relations is hardly rape.”
You responded: "I think that your reasoning is a bit specious here. If you kill someone’s family, kidnap them, and force them to have sex with you against their will, that’s rape, plain and simple. To say, as Chocobo did, that it was “marital relations” and therefore wasn’t rape is to imply that marital rape does not exist. "
No comment necessary. It appears you don’t really want to debate Chocobo, because you have to invent things to object to.
Later you said: "Hey, you can defend belief in the Magic Sky Chicken if you answer every question with nothing more than “that’s a good question!” "
Okay then let me spell it out in black and white since you apparently didn’t get it the first time: I don’t know the answer to your question! There. It is an interesting question and I gave you some possibilites, but I don’t have a solid definate answer for ya, sorry. If you expect me to have an answer for everything, you’ll be wasting your time.
Regarding my theory you said "Please, FriendofGod, this is ridiculous. Unborn babies chose evil in such a deep-seated fashion that there was no hope for them? "
No, the adults are that way. But there is such a thing as generational curses. It is entirely possible that a city can become so evil, that their children are totally predisposed to evil and have no possibility of change. If that is true, then it’s merciful in that situation for God to kill all, including children. Again, it’s a theory, I’m not saying I’m 100% certain.
You then said:
"Please, FriendofGod, you’re ignoring my argument so blatantly that it’s not even funny. God makes people knowing that they will reject him and spend an eternity in hell. If God wants love so badly, why bring himself the tsuris of making people knowing that they will only reject him? Why not choose to only create those people who will, of their own free will, choose to become Christians? "
God makes people, period. They have a choice. Each person can choose to turn to God or turn away from Him. The whole point is that this is about LOVE. If God forces me to love Him, what kind of relationship is that? He gives everyone a chance. Some choose to, some don’t.
And I was not ignoring your argument … I was cutting through all the misty fog and getting to the very heart and soul of your argument. Ben, you and I can sit here and argue these points in the generic sense until we’re blue in the face, but that is a way of avoiding the real issue.
My point is … REGARDLESS of the answer to your question Ben, YOU have a free will. YOU have heard the gospel. YOU can choose to reject or accept Christ. Forget this nebulous “what-if” stuff – the one thing you can be certain of is your own choice.
Your last comment was:
"Do us all a big favor, FriendofGod. Take a deep breath, realize that the hard sell isn’t going to work, and forget about converting me. If you can treat me like a human being instead of like conversion fodder, and listen to what I say, and explain your beliefs in a logical fashion, you’ll get a lot further towards saving my soul than you will by parroting the tired old ad pitches. "
It’s not a game, it’s not a pitch, and you aren’t “conversion fodder” for petes sake!
If I didnt see you as a human being I wouldn’t have written what I wrote. If you were “conversion fodder” I would’ve said in a syrrupy voice, “Now come on Ben, just pray this prayer after me … etc etc”. I am trying to point out to you that all this peripheral what about how God treats -this- person or -that- group is avoiding the real issue. And I’m sorry that you consider God’s offer of fulfilling love to you as an “ad pitch”.
Finally, Ptahlis:
You said: "The law of gravity is just not a good example. It can be independantly verified. "
And: “It is not your faith in God that people find objectionable, but your faith in yourself.”
And: “By saying “I believe…,” rather than “It is a fact that…,” the first person is not in any way “watering down” his message.”
Finally: “However, simply calling your belief a fact doesn’t confer upon it any degree of certainty to anyone other than yourself. All it does is call into question your willingness to question yourself.”
Thank you for your comments, very thought provoking.
Here’s what I’m thinking. If I tweak my “law of gravity” illustration slightly, you’ll see better what I mean. Suppose the evidence for the law of gravity is there, but not as clear-cut or verifiable as it actually is. And suppose this person who doesn’t believe in it is going to test it one day by jumping off a building. And suppose that’s the only way to get 100% certainty of the law of gravity (again, suppose the evidence we are used to seeing isn’t quite as 100% verifiable).
That’s the situation I and millions of believers face. Yeah, they’ll find out 100% that it’s true one day – and then it’ll be too late. As far as “faith in myself” and “not being willing to question myself” … here’s the other dilemma. There IS a second, living breathing entity involved here … God himself. Just because you and others on this board don’t believe in Him doesn’t mean He isn’t real. I know He’s real because He lives inside me. The truth is I AM willing to question my own personal beliefs about things … but I’m not willing to question what God Himself says is true. Again, a real, living, breathing God that I personally know.
This is what many don’t understand – this isn’t a “religious debate”. There’s a real live actual God involved in all this as well. He lives in me, and I can’t very well deny that. It may not be as verifiable to you as the law of gravity, but, if anything, it’s more verifiable to me!
As for your idea of saying “I believe” instead of “This is a fact” … I dunno. I suppose it’s still the truth. Yeah, it’s something that “I believe”, but the fact that I believe it doesn’t mean anything! You could easily say, “Well I’m glad you believe that, hope it works for you. Surely you don’t expect it to apply to everyone.”
Here’s the other dilemma I and other Christians face, Ptahlis. The society we live in thrives on the notion that there is no absolute truth. I realize you said that you don’t believe that, but many, many people today do. They think right and wrong is a matter of opinion. That’s why people like myself sometimes feel the need to come on strong with black-and-white truth.
I will pray about and consider your suggestion nonetheless. But I just don’t want to give off the mistaken impression that it’s all just a matter of personal opinion. Again, my “illustrative” dilemma is: the law of gravity isn’t 100% verifiable, and people are going to test it to see if it’s true. It’s a rather urgent situation.
FriendofGod, I’m sorry to continue this sidetrack, especially after the sadly unread verses and commentary I posted way up at the top of this page. But I find myself drawn to comment on this:
I’m sorry, but I see a comment to be extremely necessary, and I’d like to see it from you or Chocobo. The Deuteronomy and Numbers passages say, in a nutshell, when you go to war, you may capture the wives and daughters of the men you kill. You then give them a couple weeks or months to grieve, then you marry them and have sex with them. Even if they don’t want to.
Because, apparantly, if you’re married, it’s consensual. Even if it isn’t. It sure looks like that’s Chocobo’s point (“Husband-wife relations [are] hardly rape”).
Do you really not see the objections to this?
Or do you believe that in a marriage there can be no such thing as rape?
Except the Amalakites. And Midianites.
Andros
Is 3124 a Strong’s number? If so, is it for Hebrew or Greek?
God told me to be happy being gay.
I predict the only reason you will disbelieve my statement is because I have previously told you I am not Christian. Please prove me wrong.
Esprix
Chocobo, since you haven’t been posting here long, I’m going to let you in on a little secret: Throwing scripture at a problem doesn’t make it go away around here. Since there are a fair number of us who don’t believe as you do in your religious history book, using it as a source doesn’t convince anyone of anything, other than the fact that you can read. Just a little FYI.
I also note that you are willing to accept detailed historical mitigating circumstances and/or societal reference when explaining the Bible’s references to rape, yet when presented with the same kind of reference frame regarding homosexuality you stick to the letter of the book. Fascinating…
Esprix
Andros
Sorry, nevermind. I just figured it out. Thanks.
Based on this, I ask you to retract your statement:
This statement disparages your fellow Christians based on their actions, not their hearts, which you have fully admitted you do not and cannot know - only God can.
Esprix
Have I mentioned you’re my favorite person right now? 
Esprix
The acceptance of Christ might be fundamental, but all the rest is interpretation. You get there one way, someone else gets there another way, but both of you are getting there through Christ. After all, you don’t know their hearts.
Esprix
slythe, babe, meshuga, take a pill. Polycarp was referring to FoG’s friend’s growing up period, so he’s asking if when he was a boy he was attracted to other boys. C’mon, deep breaths - we all know Poly’s not that dim.
Esprix
Hallelujah - a man saved by Jesus. Pass the Bible and call me Jehosephat.
Has this guy gotten reputable psychological counselling for his molestation as a child (and I’m not talking about his church, God or pastor)? This worries me.
What worries me more is his disregard for his wife and children’s health. “Leaving it up to God” is a cowardly way of not taking responsibility for attempted murder. I’ll pray to God as well that this guy gets a clue and stops this reprehensible and irresponsible behavior before he hurts someone.
One man’s story - as valid as the next. Thankfully, his is not mine.
Esprix
Yo, Monty and slythe! I had asked FriendofGod to put a list of questions to his “ex-gay” friend, and one or the other post the results. I’d assume most of us are astute enough at unmasking sock puppets to detect whether the alleged post by the other guy was distinctly written. (I can, I believe, see the distinct attitude and style of what the friend is supposed to have written from FoG’s stylistics, allowing that both are conservative Christians of a “get-saved” approach to the faith. The “men/boys” phrasing was mine, slythe, and was intended to mean “boy with boys”/“men with men,” not pederasty! (Thanks, Esprix, for the clarification!)
FriendofGod said to Ben:
Thank you. We have spent so much sideline time on this thread with the threadbare arguments that somewhere in the Old Testament God is recorded as having told the Israelites to commit some atrocity or other, etc., and on the “he wants you to see the error of your ways and turn to him” theme of conservative Protestantism, that the point I keep trying to make (hey, I’m a Christian; I’ve got a right to repeat the same stuff!!:D) about his Love and its transforming power seems to get repetitively missed.
Hey, a metaphor I came up with over the weekend that should get Gaudere and FoG ROFL: Imagine Jesus as the lead singer of a boyband: “I don’t care who you are or where you’re from or what you did, as long as you love Me.” And all He wants of you is to get your life, uh, “in sync” with Him. 
The idea that God wants to bring even more fulfillment into an already pretty good life is one that seems to have escaped everybody. Gaudere is happy in who she is and what she does; she is not aware of being a condemned sinner awaiting punishment and repressing her well-deserved feelings of guilt (and would probably resent being described as such!) But the idea that God wants to come into her life and make it even better and even more fulfilled is one that she might find acceptable. (Gaudere, would this make sense as a generic statement of a possibility, not as one you’re required to determine the truth value of right now?) The metaphor of civil as opposed to criminal – that I am quite incapable of building something to divine standards, but Jesus my colleague can do so, and will underwrite my contract to enable me to do just that – not that I am felonious for failing to meet the impossibly high requirements of God’s criminal law, in the Augustinian/Calvinist tradition – is the one I am pushing, and has the “blessing” of traditional Jewish thought. Chaim and Zev are not “sinners in the hands of an angry God” – they are men who are trying their best to live out what the God they love, and who loves them, has set forth for them in His Law. For their benefit, be it noted; God requires a life in obedience to His law, not because He’s a petty tyrant who answers “Because I CAN” but because in His Fatherly wisdom He knows that such a life brings out the best in them. That is what He wants of me, and why He has put a burden on my heart to push the idea that He is a God of Love and not of retribution. (IMHO, FoG has the same burden, but has unfortunately but perhaps inevitably cloaked it in enough fundy. jargon and Bibliocentrist thought to make it nearly invisible to the average reader of his posts.)
Finally, I want to thank FoG’s friend (in view of our relationship to SNOPES and its campaign against urban legends, can we designate him FOAF – ‘friend of a friend’ for convenience’ sake?) for honest answers. I think the views of a successful “ex-gay” would help to resolve a lot of misunderstandings about that whole phenomenon.
The fact that FOAF had been molested as a child, which FoG never reported (unaware? protecting his friend’s privacy?), casts a whole new light on this situation. My impression is that FOAF was “in the gay scene” sort of by default – having discovered that he enjoyed sex with a man through the molestation, not because he was specifically attracted to men (or to boys when a boy himself). I would be very interested in an analysis of FOAF’s responses from Esprix or another gay poster, not out to shoot down what FOAF is saying but to get some grasp on how this whole story relates to what we are exploring here. I found it very interesting to read FOAF’s account of his “almost monogamous” gay relationship vis-a-vis his marriage…the first being described in those words with no emotional content and the marriage being an apparent love relationship. 'Sprix? Wanna explore FOAF’s account from the point of view, not of a argumenter to be shot down, but of a person describing events in his life, and relate it to what you know, personally or through reading, of the feelings of gay men and women? My guess is that FOAF was never truly gay in the sense you consider yourself gay, but “in the gay lifestyle” (I’m sorry!!) through what happened to him at an early age.
BTW, I suspect that there are an inordinate proportion of gay men who were victims of molestation, based on my own reading. Not because the molestation “turned them gay” – but because they were among those who could respond sexually to another male, and where they might have repressed such stuff if never molested, “because it’s perverted” and “because I’m not gay,” the molestation, harmful as it may have been, allowed them to discover and express their sexuality as same-sex inclusive. Not that they may not have needed therapy for having been used as sex objects by men when young. Would this make sense? And I would require that everybody accept the clear distinction between homosexuality between consenting same-age individuals and pedophilia that we seem to have maintained up until now. That is a game for flaming people you disagree with that this thread does not need. Thanks to FOAF’s life story, we may need to deal with molestation of boys as a part of this discussion. Keep it quite separate from the other topics in question, please and thank you.
And I agree, Holly, the idea of the couple risking HIV+ in faith that God would protect them is either the highest example of faith (=radical trust in God) I’ve seen or the scariest risk – or both.
I’d like to explore in more detail the answers FOAF give, but that is going to require time I don’t have at this moment. More later.
(Sorry for the running list of posts, but it just kinda happened. Nyeh.)
Yes, he could. We all could. In fact, it is my own humble opinion that we should - including you. After all, when an atheist comes to you with his own belief that there is no God is the Truth, that’s exactly what you say to them, as I’m sure you don’t want them to apply that philosophy to you.
Oh, but it is. What you have is faith, which Merriam-Webster defines as:
From Merriam-Webster, of course.
Note that nowhere in there does it say anything about “truth.” Your belief, your faith, is not The Truth™ for anyone except you.
Esprix
AUGH! I get busy for a couple of days and all of a sudden I’m way behind! I’m just gonna respond to a couple things Esprix posted…
Since the debate here is on Christianity’s view on certain issues, and why we look at it the way we do, Scripture pertaining to those issues is very relevant.
Sometimes the frame of reference applies, sometimes it doesn’t. In the case of homosexual behavior, I don’t think it does, because of Rom. 1:25-28. The ‘detailed historical mitigating circumstances’ or ‘societal reference’ would only apply if the homosexual act was deemed non-sinful after Jesus’s death and resurrection. Romans was written afterwards, and according to it, the homosexual act is perversion. Since, like I said earlier, Jesus’s death and resurrection brought some new rules, and abolished some of the old ones.
That’s all for now…I’ll post some more later, when I’m not suffering from sleep deprivation.