Well, things are getting a little heated around here!
I will try to get through this string of posts and make a few comments…
Ben:
You said “Based on nothing more than your own interpretation of your own Bible, I have concluded that the deity you worship is evil. Who fed me the lies, exactly? You? The Bible?”
And: “I don’t have a problem with God at all. I just don’t think you worship the real God”
First of all Ben: you brought up one passage of scripture and I commented on what I thought might be an interpretation of it. I never said conclusively that I believed anything very strongly about this passage. So how can you say it was “my interpretation” that led you to believe the God of the Bible is evil? I barely have an interpretation of this passage, just some guesses! It seems you’re basing it more on your interpretation, which you’ve described in depth in this post. Correct me if I’m wrong (as I’m sure you will).
Second, if you’re really concluding this based on my interpretation of scripture, shouldn’t you consider my thoughts on all that the Bible says about God? Not just on a volatle passage you picked out? In other words, it seems like a rather leading conversation. You pick out a highly controversial passage and give a rather harsh interpretation. I give my best guess as to what it might mean – and you define that as my personal belief about God, and since I believe that about God, you could never believe in a God like that.
You can’t actually conclude anything about my beliefs about God from this passage because, as I’ve said, I don’t have any strong belief one way or the other about this passage.
Once again, correct me if I’m wrong.
Kimstu: after reading your commentary quote, I read the notes in my Bible on the same verse and it essentially said the same thing … that 24:14’s use of the word “dishonored” (in NIV) is usually translated from a word that indicates sexual force. So apparently I was wrong in my earlier analysis.
This is an interesting study but I fear it’s distracting in a MAJOR way, because everyone is interpreting it harshly and seems certain they know exactly what it means.
I’ll make one other comment: here’s another guess or possibility as to why this is in the Bible. There is another O.T. passage in which rules are laid out for how to handle divorce. In the N.T. Jesus was asked directly about this passage and was basically asked, “Does this mean that God approves of divorce?” Here’s the passage:
" ‘Why then’, they asked, ‘did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?’ Jesus replied, ‘Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard.’" (Mt 19:7-8)
In other words … it wasn’t that God approved of divorce, it was more that it was a reality of the day and had to be regulated as it were. So perhaps the passage in question is more of a realization of the horrors of war, and a regulating of it, an attempt to temper what’s going to happen anyway (ie, giving a month to grieve, don’t treat her like a slave, etc). Again, just a guess.
Ben again:
Regarding your quoting the famous illustration of a misapplication of faith, how does it apply at all in this case?
Kimstu again:
I appreciate your concern, seriously. The thing is – I never sought out a discussion of the bible’s views of homosexuality and generally never would. I consider it to be a huge distraction from the more important points. I probably should not have finally explained my views, because even though they are not, they are seen by many as narrow-minded and/or arrogant.
On the flip side, true Christianity will always have harsh critics. The Bible makes it plain that if you’re preaching the true gospel, you’ll have many who ridicule you and “persecute” you (I put that in quotes because no one in 2000 America, except perhaps Cassie Bernall, has experienced true persecution like Chinese Christians do daily).
So my goal is not exactly to make a positive impression of Christianity … it’s to share what Christianity is, including all the rough edges. I assume it will offend some people, however, obviously I’d love it if people could see the love of God for what it is and not assume all the harsh stuff they believe about God.
So the question then becomes … is it the message or is it the messanger? In other words, is it the Bible’s true message that is offending, or am I offending? If it’s me, then yeah I should back off. If it’s just the Bible’s message, well, that’s just gonna happen anyway.
I’ll admit I’m somewhat torn. Like Poly said earlier, it’s interesting to debate these points, but I might be participating in a distraction from more important points I’d like to make. Perhaps I should stop, I dunno. I appreciate the advice and I will think & pray about it.
Chocobo: I always love your posts. As to your opinion about FOAF’s decision, actually if I were in your shoes I would probably be saying the same thing. The only reason I have a different view is from watching the situation unfold and having a strong sense that God was in it. I agree in general that the godly thing to do always is do all that you know to do and then trust in God for the rest.
Finally, Esprix said:
"What a mean-spirited god you worship - he doesn’t even explain the rules adequately, and then punishes you if you screw up. Charming. "
Nope … my point is that if we didn’t have a “rulebook” (ie the Bible) things would be unclear. He did explain things clearly in the Bible.
Later:
"You said it yourself - sometimes people are wrong in what they believe God is telling them to do. As Ben pointed out, they’ve been sent a raft, a boat and a helicopter. I recognize their beliefs, but I still maintain they are being reckless and irresponsible. "
Well, I actually understand where you and others are coming from, but I have to disagree in this particular case. Yes, in fact I was thinking the very same thing when my friend first talked about getting married (ie, “Some people are wrong in what they believe God is telling them to do”). I won’t repeat my story again but basically my mind was changed. The presence of God is all over this guy and his family, and I just believe they are under His protection supernaturally. This doesn’t mean they haven’t taken practical steps as well, but beyond that they are trusting God.
I notice that in this discussion about my friend’s HIV status, the main point of his post has been totally drowned out (I’m not saying intentionally). The main point was that God took him out of a lifestyle of sin and changed him and gave him a brand new life. And He can do that for anyone who is willing to let Him.
You also said "The man needs professional psychiatric help. "
Esprix, after spending 2 - 3 months getting to know this guy, let me know if you still have the same opinion. I’m confident you wont.
(Slight hijack)
You asked: "What the heck is “biblically-sound financial planning?”
Rather than answer your question, I will direct you to http://www.cfcministry.org/ which is the website for Christian Financial Concepts. There are lots of things the Bible has to say about debt, savings, etc etc. Larry Burkett, the guy who founded CFC, is a well respected Christian financial counselor. He has lots of good general financial advice as well as specifically biblically based advice.
You said: "Would you agree that you don’t know my heart and therefore cannot tell me what I have or have not heard directly or indirectly from God? "
In general, yeah I’d agree. But again, if you say you’ve heard God say something that contradicts what He’s already said, then no, you haven’t heard from God, no matter how sincere you are in your heart. Same is true for me or anyone.
You said “I would say in both cases you are hurting someone other than yourself, and therefore you should not do these things.”
Ah, but there’s the crux of the matter. We are using different standards. Yours is “if you are hurting someone other than yourself, you cannot say you’ve heard God.” Mine is, “if God has already said something is forbidden and you say He told you do do it, you cannot say you’ve heard God.”
You then said "If you told me, “Esprix, I really believe sincerely that God told me to eat this jelly donut,” I could believe that. "
Well I could too. In fact, I think He is telling me to go eat a jelly donut! Imagine that ;).
Finally you said "You agree that only God knows who truly has and has not given themselves to Him, yet you still claim to be able to tell me who has and has not given themselves to Him, which implies you do claim to know what is in the hearts of your fellow Christians. Shame on you. "
The Bible makes it clear what a Christian is. I never said I could look at someone and tell what is in their heart and tell for sure that what is in their heart lines up with what the Bible defines as a Christian. I can’t. I’ve already pointed that out.
But if someone exposes their heart to me, that’s different. Let’s take an obvious example. Let’s say someone tells me in confidence that they’ve hated Jesus their entire life. Well, the Bible says that a Christian loves the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind. So it would not be a stretch or a judgment to say that, based on what’s in this person’s heart, they are not a Christian. It’s not to attack them, it’s to accurately diagnose the situation so you can help.
Esprix, I have never said your friends are or aren’t Christians. Go back and read each and every post, and you will never once find me saying that. Again, I don’t know their hearts. Suppose I were to meet one of them and become friends with them over the course of several months.
Suppose they one day confided in me that they know what they are doing is wrong and want God to change them and they are constantly asking God for help. And suppose they claim to be a Christian. In that situation, I’d have no reason to question or doubt it.
On the other hand, if they confided in me that they believe they can be a Christian and be gay at the same time, and they don’t appreciate people telling them differently – then I’m in that rather awkward and horrific 1st Cor chapter 5 situation.
So no, I don’t judge their hearts. But the Bible does define where a person’s heart has to be to be a Christian. If someone exposes their heart to me, it’s not hard for me or them or anyone for that matter to match up their heart with what the Bible says. God judges, but you can see what God’s judgment is throughout the Bible.
Seriously, though, while I may disagree with your theology, I do admire your tenacity, as well as your willingness to look at flaws in yourself. So don’t take my post as criticism, but rather as opinion, which you can value or not, as you like.
Thanks!