:eek: I didn’t read the whole site, I just saw the percentage number, which is what I was looking for. I didn’t see the other BS they were spouting or else I wouldn’t have posted the link.
Actually, I should have known better than to try to list a percentage backed up by a web site. I just have just said something along the lines of “There are a lot of Christians in America and there are also a lot of people who think that premarital sex is OK” or something like that, since the percentage of Christians isn’t important to this question, but only, if you’re a Christian and you have premarital sex, why?
Well, like I just said, forget the percentages, they aren’t important to the question.
Sorry, but I am limiting my question to intercourse. As for what I did, I felt that since I wasn’t going all the way, then I wasn’t breaking the teaching of no sex before marriage. But then again, I had it pointed out to me that I was probably just rationalizing my actions.
So, anyway, trying to answer your question, so we can move back to the OP question dealing strictly with intercourse, I’ve followed my churches teachings and didn’t have sex before I got married. As for other things, fondling, fingering, and so on, I am not asking about these activities outside of marriage, so my belief on if they’re OK or not isn’t important.
It would be silly to act as if all the people getting married in other traditions aren’t really married. But if Christianity were to be interpreted as requiring a particular ceremony for people to “be married in the eyes of God”–as it may be in some traditions–it would also need to recognize that those who have lived together as man & wife, and have children together, have obligations to each other.
I think this logically applies not only those married in, say, Shinto ceremonies, but those who have merely co-habited for such time as they would be considered man & wife in Roman law (the custom familiar to many early Christians) & English common law.
One is not to be condemned for having had pre-marital sex. This is not (Biblically) a mortal sin. All is set right if you can honorably marry the girl, and do. See Exodus 22:16-17.
(I spotted these as Sequential Thread titles:
Iraq war for Catholics is sinful.
Catholicism, Geocentrism, and Galileo
Christianity and premarital sex
Well, the majority of ‘Christians’ believe they are ‘Christian’ because they believe they are good people. Of these Christians, how many believe the Bible, how many know Jesus, how many have repented of sin, etc…
As for the OP, I believe marriage is a covenant, and to study OT covenants sheds a bit of light on the subject. To say love is enough, or you know you will marry then it’s ok, is not entirely correct. There are lots of people who think they will marry, or who love each other, but never do get married. Marriage is becoming one with another, body soul and spirit, as is sex. The Bible says to keep this in the marriage, and for good reason. So again, why do people who claim they’re Christians have sex? It is my opinion that Christianity to them is like an insurance policy as opposed to a lifestyle. It is something taught, but you need to then attend a church to be taught. But people also don’t like to hear that what they’re doing is wrong, so they tune people out. These people commonly use the verse judge not…and God is love to justify their sin.
My last though I’ll have to share as a story. There was a father and son who went on a camping trip. The father said to the son he could go swimming anywhere, except the area that was fenced off. When the father went for a nap, the son thought that the fenced off area didn’t look too bad, so he walked out on the little deck, after jumping over the fence, and jumped in. The father was wakened by a scream and ran out to see his son swimming towards the shore as some alligators were swimming towards him. The father jumped the fence, dove in to save his son. The son looked back and saw the bloodied figure of his father as he crawled up on the deck, all torn and barely alive. If the son truly understood the goodness and love that made his father do that, would he then think, “Hey, that wasn’t too bad, and the water was nice. I’d like to go swimming in there again.” Many people don’t really understand the grossness of sin, nor the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, and think it’s ok to swim in the waters of sin. Once they do, it’s the goodness of God that will make them repent.
My belief is that there is a stark and painful difference between faith and religion, and I understand that there are many who are not going to be comfortable with my post here. Please understand that these are my beliefs, but that I am sharing, as it may be pertinent to someone else’s understanding of the gist of the OP’s question.
To my mind and heart, faith is easily defined as my relationship to God/dess, The Creator, Abba, Allah, As You Wish.
And Religion is defined (for me!!) as allowing another human being, flawed just as I am flawed, to do my thinking as regards that relationship, or to dictate how I behave as a result of it. As a very good friend once put it, I am a deist. There are many people down the ages with some very wise thoughts on how I should conduct my relationship with God (as a simple moniker for a not-so-simple concept), but I cannot give up the responsibility for that relationship. These wiser people may advise me, but they have no right to expect me to agree and acquiesce.
Therefore, I look at the Ten Commandments as being a fairly reasonable guide for good behaviour, but not as a Holy Dictum. God gave me a brain and a conscience, and required that I use them. According to several personal sources I have questioned on the topic, “adultery” is not so much sleeping with someone you are not married to, but being on either side of the equation when one of the people in your bed is married to someone else entirely. I do not see this as a stricture against sex before marriage, so much as a stricture against cheating on the marriage vows.
So, you ask, how do I govern my sexuality, then? Well, that is not an easy answer, as it took me a few years and a lot of tears to work it out, but Robertson Davies pointed out in more than one place that chastity is having the body in the care of the soul; that to be chaste, one gives one’s body only where one gives one’s soul. I fall short of the mark, yes. But I make an honest attempt at it. And before I lie down with ANY new partner, not only do I consider whether I’m being quite stupid, but whether I know of anyone else who would be wounded by my actions with this person. And I’m pleased with myself that when the answer has been yes (to the second question; stupidity, sadly, is not always a deterrent) I have declined the opportunity for some nookie.
Sorry for the verbosity. Seems this topic is closer to my heart than I had originally suspected.
I would think that #4 (“Other”) requires no explanation. You can believe that something is wrong, even if you yourself have committed that action before.
Remember, everyone has done things that they consider to be wrong. Are you seriously suggesting that if someone has committed Offense A in times past, then that person automatically loses all right to denounce that act as wrongful?
Horseshit. Elitist fundie holier-than-thou horseshit.
andros, I don’t think Svt4Him is suggesting that you have to be a Christian to be a good person (although if you are, I say horseshit too) but that most of these people are raised in Christian households and thus consider themselves generally okay if they do what Mommy and Daddy told them…
-hijack-
Incidentally, I had to look at the “test scores/cranial capacity” thing on the fundie site, and I note that “Asian Boys” (according to the nutjobs) have higher cranial capacities than anyone else, and get better test scores.
Now, to me, anyone trying to suggest that whites are in some way genetically superior (I’m going to assume these chaps aren’t Asian) is probably making a mistake by pointing out that Asians supposedly have greater cranial capacity…although I suppose the point is just to convince people that “those other darkies” are stupid and ought not to be dating their daughters…
Then it hit me. They aren’t saying I’m smarter than their kids- they’re saying I have an oversized head <sigh>
-end hijack-
Wow, just when I thought I was perfectly clear, you have to confuse things all up. I’m not talking about people from other societies or other religions, I’m asking about American Christians. I’m seriously on the verge of asking questions will every bit of information in them, even those people should be smart enough to figure out for themselves. Maybe then people will quit bugging me with useless details.
OK then, for your sake, maybe asking the question this way will make you understand what I’m asking.
In the United States of America, in modern times (modern times referring the times we currently live in), most Christian denominations (Christian denominations being Anglican, Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran, Pentecostal, and the like) condone sex (I’m using the word sex in this case to mean intercourse) before marriage (I’m talking about a being involved in a religious wedding performed by an ordained priest or minister of some sort) as a sin because it’s usually seen as fornication (since fornication is seen as
Sexual intercourse between partners who are not married to each other.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fornication )
Therefore if someone has had, or has premarital sex, and at the time of having sex, is a practicing Christian, that is, someone who practices Christianity, then do they feel that what they have done goes against their beliefs (Their current beleifs if they are currently practicing Christians, or their former beliefs if they were practicing Christians at the time they had premarital sex, but are currently no longer). I then gave the following 4 options to choose from:
- Your denomination (the denomination of the person answering the question) didn’t teach that it’s wrong.
- Your denomination teaches that it’s wrong, but you don’t believe that it is.
- Your denomination teaches that it’s wrong, but you don’t care.
- Other, please explain.
There, is that clear enough for you?
I’m sorry, maybe you misunderstand the intent of my post. I’ll try to be clearer. My post is based on two premises,
- That there are a lot of Christians here in America (How many, I don’t know, sadly the site I listed turned out to be racist, sorry everybody)
- Premarital sex is pretty common place. I don’t need a cite for this one, it’s common knowledge and common practice.
So, I was just wondering if Practicing Christians who have or have had premarital sex see that action as conflicting with their faith. In other words, I’m just trying to get into peoples heads and see what makes them tick. Most of the major Christian denominations denounce premarital sex, but most American people practice it, I’m just trying to find out why. As stated at the beginning, I’m only posting this here in GD because it’s religious in nature. In this thread I’m not making any personal or religious judgments about people who practice or have practiced premarital sex. Of course someone who practiced premarital sex can denounce it as wrong, I never said they couldn’t, what I asking is, if, when they had the premarital sex, they were Christians, did they see what they were doing as wrong or not. And if they did see it as wrong, why did they do it anyway? Yes, I know that question can be asked about a lot of things we do, and I’m sure that I myself am guilty of doing things I know my Church teaches against. But this thread is limited to premarital sex
Also, after posting this thread, I realized how personal a question I asked and have had some second thoughts on it, so, to everybody, sorry about asking such a personal question.
Anyway JThunder, I hope this answers your question and clears things up for you. If not, just let me know and I’ll try harder.
Actually, this oversimplifies greatly. But for my gang of pals, the situation often clouded judgment. I’ll leave it at that.
Kinda, but not really.
In a nutshell, he’s saying he gets to decide who’s really a Christian.
My personal experience confirms this statement. I am deeply concerned that so many people I know well consider themselves “good” and “Christian” and shrug off any further conversation.
And funny, isn’t it, that when polls indicating high percentages self-define as Christian are posted in the SDMB, atheists always jump into to dispute them as deficient. Now, a Christian questions the same type of poll and he’s jumped as if assiging damnation seats by name! Amazing!
Oh, and *Andros this is GD, not the PIT. You might want to modify your tone.
Or I might not.
The idea that most people in the US who identify as Christian only do so because they “believe they are good people” is simply and plainly wrong, and exists only to make poor persecuted “True Christians” feel superior. It’s another way to harp on the faith vs. works bugaboo, and just another “weak Christian” strawman.
It’s horseshit, and I’ll call it by its name.
“Believing I’m a good person” does not lead to “believing I’m a Christian.” But apparantly “believing I’m Christian” does lead to “believing I’m Right.”