I took issue with this question (and called its answer irrelevant), because it lead back to what I felt would be an attack (perhaps too strong a word, but I can’t think of a good synonym right now) on my personal belief structure, not Christianity in general. Like I said before, I could go through all the reasons why I believe Jesus is the Messiah, but it wouldn’t matter, because I do not speak for all Christians. To assume otherwise is foolhardy.
I believe that Ben could have said simply gone what became his explaination to Meatros, which said that he believed that Christians intentionally misconstrued the prophecies in the Old Testament, then said, “That is why I belive Christianity to be illogical.”
That’s why I jumped on that question, Ben. It was your approach.
Let me say that contrary to my usual policy, I’m posting some links without reading them first (but I have skimmed them for relevance.) I thought they might be of interest, since they bear on my ideas about Christianity being illogical (although I don’t have the time to defend my statements in any detail right now.)
Let me point out that the false prophecy of Jeremiah which particularly impresses me is his prediction that Babylon would be destroyed and never rebuilt- not a single brick reused- as a punishment for the conquest of Judah. Babylon was subsequently destroyed and rebuilt several times over the following centuries, oftentimes with bricks being hauled off by the locals for other construction projects, and Saddam Hussein is rebuilding ancient Babylon as we speak.
Children are perfectly rational. When they cry, people come and comfort and feed them. Therefore, they cry their heads off. If you tazered a child every time it cried, it would stop pretty damn quick.
Just to add to the post above this one, newborns don’t “acquire knowledge without reason” in the least. They use sensory perception to learn. A building block, the first if you will, in the ‘staircase’ to reason.
If, OTOH, you’re suggesting this knowledge is acquired in different fashion, I’d like to hear your theories on it. Hopefully, it will be something a bit more novel than the Thomists tired route of “relying on authority” as a form of “knowledge through faith.”
It’s simply not true that newborn children are “perfectly rational”. Newborns cry from instinct, not because they have worked out that someone will come and attend to them. They only learn that later.
It is wrong to suggest that if you “tazered” a child every time it cried, it would stop. Children will stop crying if it does not attract attention, but even this development does not come for some time. A newborn will cry until it is exhausted if not attended to.
Newborns do acquire knowledge before they acquire the ability to reason. They learn to recognise their parents, for one thing. The ability to reason arrives much later.
Sensory perception does not equal reason, as you rightly point out, RedFury. Nor is it a “building block” in a “staircase to reason” except in the sense that experience may yield data which can be subject to rational analysis. But we can and do learn from experience without deploying rational analysis.
We continue to do this even after we have acquired the ability to reason. In fact, most of our knowledge of the immediate physical world is acquired through experience rather than reason.
I know that if I step outside the door of the room I am now in, I will be on the landing of my own house. I know this because I have experienced it. A cow also knows what is on the other side of the barn. Neither I nor the cow have used reason to acquire this knowledge.
I think most religious faith is founded on experience rather than reason.
Based on what you wrote, it seems that you’re talking about perception – the faculty of man an higher animals to integrate sensory input into a ‘percept’ – and conditioning based on that input. Nothing groundbraking here.
However, what separates man from animals is his conceptual faculty and ability to derive meaning from said concepts. Epistemology, as I’m sure you’re aware, is the field of philosophy that deals with the methods and standards for acquiring and validating concepts. It allows us to classify a proposition as impossible, possible, likely, or certain. Which neatly leads us back to where we started: as far as I know, reason, is the only way to validate concepts.
Again, if you disagree, present us with an alternate epistemological method. I posit that you can’t. Faith needs the validation of reason to become knowledge – and once it does, by definition, it ceases to be an article of faith.
I absolutely disagree. I interpret it at its literal interpretation. All have sinned. Where does it connote that Hitler’s Final Solution is equal to stealing a gumball?
Can all sins be forgiven through God’s grace? The Bible says yes. That all sins can be forgiven does not mean that some sins aren’t more grave than others.
It’s hard to imagine that Hitler, Stalin, scientists who tortured concentration camp prisoners during World War II (take your pick of someone atrocious) could, in their final moments on earth, say “Sorry about that” and receive eternal reward; while somebody who lived an otherwise exemplary life and helped his fellow man as often as possible, yet doubted (i.e., rejected) the existence of God, Jesus and forgiveness through Him/Them is condemned to permanent suffering.
Milossarian, I believe you are correct in this matter.
Many people say that no sin is worse than any other in God’s eyes. Quite simply though, the Bible says no such thing. It says that all sin merits God’s wrath, and thus requires his forgiveness and grace. This does not mean that all sins are equally grave.
IN FACT, the Book of Exodus repeatedly labels certain sins are “abominations,” but not others. In addition, there are certain sins that would automatically disqualify someone from pastorhood (adultery, for example), whereas others wouldn’t necessarily do so. We could mention other examples of how certain sins are described in more grave terms than others, but I think the point is clear. The Bible does NOT say that all sins are equally bad.
In fact, when someone says that all sins are equal in God’s eyes, I find that it is usually an attempt to minimize some heinous offense --as though to say, “Well, it’s really no worse than a mild lie.” It is a shame, in my mind.
I am not sure if you are still reading this one, but here:
I don’t think all atheists are going to hell. Now, I have to admit I am certainly not a Major Christian. I am a fairly minor Christian. But my Lord promised to every soul, that when they meet, He shall receive them in the same way that they received his children. And He said some of them would say, “But we did not know you!”
Now, I am not claiming that that is logical. My faith in my Lord is certainly not logical. Actually, I am not at all sure that He is logical. I am certain that logic does not constrain Him. But logic remains a powerful tool for man, and with it, man can apprehend the universe. God is not the universe.
A special word of comfort to any stupid Christians reading this:
Be of good cheer! The Lord will not abandon you, because you cannot understand Him. He loves you. You don’t have to be right, or even good. But you should try to love those you meet, because the Lord asks it of you.
I cannot understand beauty, but I see it. I do not love because it is logical to do so, but I am unwilling to forgo love, in favor of logic. I can present no proof of God, and have no evidence which science can confirm. Yet God has proven Himself to me.
I can offer no argument but this, to those who ask why they should believe in my Lord. If there was no Jesus, and only death awaits me, still I would wish to live as He bid me to live, with love for every soul I meet. I would love Him still, even as I died, and was no more. Logic has nothing to do with it. I hope it not so. I have faith that it is not so. I have the love of Christ, no matter what is so. Of the three, love is the greatest.
Tris
“Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength; loving someone deeply gives you courage.” ~ Lao-Tzu ~
I still don’t follow you. What would make a person “good”? What does make a person bad?
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That’s okay, I feel the same way about Christianity in general
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Well, straight from the (divine) horse’s mouth, Matthew 16:17-19
What’s your take on that? I, personally, have no problem with the Catholic interpretation: Jesus is saying that Peter is the founder of His Church. Whatever Peter and his Church say–goes.
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Therefore, I am NOT a sinner. No forgiveness needed.
I don’t know if we’re going to get anywhere with this line of discussion, because we each keep using incomplete analogies. Yes, a parent can drink beer, but a nine year-old cannot. However, neither a parent nor a nine year-old can legally murder someone.
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Since when does someone need to ask for forgiveness in order to be forgiven? I have, at many times in my life, forgiven people with whom I have no contact. Why can’t God say, “Yeah, you didn’t bow down and worship me, but since I’m Infinite Love and Compassion, I’ll forgive you”?
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Milo and JThunder already covered that pretty glib interpretation of yours.
Ashtar, I really think you’re off base here. Romans 3:23 doesn’t say that some fall short more severely than others, but that doesn’t mean that it’s untrue. It simply says that all of us DO fall short, and is silent on the matter of the extent to which we do so.
In other words, I don’t think this argument from silence means anything.
Sorry, I have a hard time articulating my ideas and beliefs sometimes. They make so much sense in my head, but then I try to type them out, and my head gets ahead of my hands, and…blah! Let me try again.
1.) What I mean by “good” and “bad” is what we humans define as good and bad. God doesn’t care if we’re good, He loves us anyway. I don’t belive there aren’t good people and bad people with the Lord. I would be a fool to try and tell you exactly what God looks for in a person, except that Jesus told us to love our neighbors as ourselves.
2.) My personal experiences with the church have left me with little respect for the modern day incarnation. I see huge buildings with lavish art work, expensive stained glass windows, and a bunch of fake people who pretend to love you because they believe they are in the presence of the Lord. And they always need money. Dammit, if God has problems with money, then how am I supposed to be able to pay my bills? Basically, I don’t take practical advice or life lessons from people who can’t balance their own checkbook. This is why I would rather come up with my own conclusions about what the Bible tells me (or if I have questions discuss them with those whose opinions I trust) than listen to some old guy tell me how smoking weed violates the commandment against murder.
Jesus told us to love the Lord our God, with all our heart, all our soul, all our mind, and all our strength and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. Would eating meat on Friday really be that big a problem with Him?
3.) The beer is supposed to be representative of the rule that Dad seemingly gets to break, while the child thinks it’s just not fair. Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to us when we’re 9 years old, does it? I believe it’s the same thing with why God seemingly gets to break the rules He laid out for us. God is supposed to be all-knowing. Can’t we just assume that He knows what’s best for us, the same way Dad won’t let us sip his beer? I know minors drinking beer is hardly comparable with murder, but it’s the best analogy I can come up with right now.
4.) This is probably just my Psychology 101 talking here, but I feel that for a real healing to begin in a relationship where someone has wronged you, they need to admit they were wrong to you by asking forgiveness. Sometimes this is not possible, so we just let it go and move one with out lives, like you did. I’ve done that, too. Maybe it’s just me, but that never quite feels resoloved. Maybe that’s just the kind of relationship I have with God, but I doubt it.
5.) See my last post. I think I might have been unclear before. Ot, we may just have different interpretations as to what that verse means.
Sorry, I have a hard time articulating my ideas and beliefs sometimes. They make so much sense in my head, but then I try to type them out, and my head gets ahead of my hands, and…blah! Let me try again.
1.) What I mean by “good” and “bad” is what we humans define as good and bad. God doesn’t care if we’re good, He loves us anyway. I would be a fool to try and tell you exactly what God looks for in a person, except that Jesus told us to love our neighbors as ourselves.
2.) My personal experiences with the church have left me with little respect for the modern day incarnation. I see huge buildings with lavish art work, expensive stained glass windows, and a bunch of fake people who pretend to love you because they believe they are in the presence of the Lord. And they always need money. Dammit, if God has problems with money, then how am I supposed to be able to pay my bills? Basically, I don’t take practical advice or life lessons from people who can’t balance their own checkbook. This is why I would rather come up with my own conclusions about what the Bible tells me (or if I have questions discuss them with those whose opinions I trust) than listen to some old guy tell me how smoking weed violates the commandment against murder.
Jesus told us to love the Lord our God, with all our heart, all our soul, all our mind, and all our strength and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. Would eating meat on Friday really be that big a problem with Him?
3.) The beer is supposed to be representative of the rule that Dad seemingly gets to break, while the child thinks it’s just not fair. Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to us when we’re 9 years old, does it? I believe it’s the same thing with why God seemingly gets to break the rules He laid out for us. God is supposed to be all-knowing. Can’t we just assume that He knows what’s best for us, the same way Dad won’t let us sip his beer? I know minors drinking beer is hardly comparable with murder, but it’s the best analogy I can come up with right now.
4.) This is probably just my Psychology 101 talking here, but I feel that for a real healing to begin in a relationship where someone I’ve wronged somebody, I need to ask their forgiveness, and hear that they forgive me. Sometimes this is not possible, so we just let it go and move one with out lives, like you did. I’ve done that, too. Maybe it’s just me, but that never quite feels resoloved. Maybe that’s just the kind of relationship I have with God.
5.) See my last post. I think I might have been unclear before. Ot, we may just have different interpretations as to what that verse means.
Lord Ashtar, I appreciate your attempts to explain yourself… but I’m still not getting it. It’s probably me, so if you’ve run out of patience, that’s okay. But if not… first of all, if God doesn’t care if we’re good, should we excise my favorite book, James, from the Bible? (“Faith without works is dead”). Second, I’m not sure if I’ve sorted through the negatives in the second sentence above correctly, but I think you’re saying that, in your opinion, there are bad people with the Lord? How bad? Stalin-bad?
The parts of Christianity (or any religion, for that matter) that I find useful are the parts that direct people to help out other people on this Earth. I add the italicized emphasis because “witnessing” doesn’t count as helping someone, in my book. If you’re going to say “God doesn’t care if we’re good,” you’re totally throwing out the parts of Christianity that I find worthwhile. LA, you’re repeated the Golden Rule time and time again… and now you’re saying that this Rule is optional. You’ve ruined Christianity for me (well, not just you).
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I take it you similarly reject Protestantism? After all, Google for Peter Popoff, Jimmy Swaggart, James Bakker, Praise the Lord, etc etc ad nauseum. I don’t own a church myself, so I’m somewhat talking out of my ass here, but I’d think that needing money all the time is the standard. How do churches raise money if not through tithing? (Er, and bake sales, too.)
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Probably not. But I’d like to borrow your rhetorical question and change it to suit my own needs (heh heh heh). If someone loves his neighbors with all of his heart, mind, soul, strength, etc, but they do it without loving God, is that really such a problem for the Big Guy? If it is, then to hell with him.
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I’ve found that healing, resolution, and forgiveness is a mixed bag. I’ve had people ask me for forgiveness and I’ve given it, and it feels not-right. I’ve had people NOT ask me for forgiveness, I’ve forgiven them, and it’s felt not-right. But I’ve also had people NOT ask me for forgiveness, I’ve forgiven them anyways, and it feels just right. Am I more willing to forgive than God?
1.) Regarding whether loving one’s neighbor as oneself is logical:
2.) Why should I believe in your Lord? You yourself say that you’d love your neighbor even if Christianity were false. So why Christianity in particular?
3.) What do you make of Jeremiah?
4.) Do you want to do what God expects you to do in any particular sense, or do you feel that you have no obligations to God’s will beyond “love thy neighbor”? For example, if God didn’t want you to eat pork, would you not eat pork?
