Ugh… I need a vacation.
Here’s my link to my argument that “love thy neighbor” is eminently logical:
Originally posted by **Ben **:
The fact that an aspect of my faith might be logical does not distress me. That it might not be logical, is likewise not of major importance. If I found that my understanding of mathematics, or physics was illogical I would have to consider that quite closely, because my understanding of physics rests entirely on logic.
I will not tell you what to believe. I will share with you the love of God, as I have experienced it, through Jesus, who I call Christ, my Lord. But I can offer no proof, only my own word.
I don’t do dueling verses. I am willing to try to understand anyone’s interpretation of scripture, but for me, the Bible (including all the so called Apocrypha) is a story of some people who have come to know God. I think you can find what you wish in it. I read it to find the comfort of my Lord’s words.
I think I am entirely and absolutely obligated to God. I think shopping is a sin. I think that every single thing we do, aside from giving our love without stint, to God, and every one of His children is a sin. I also believe that I should try not to sin. I am very sure that I fail in that attempt. Intellectually, I must admit, that I find it probable that you too, fail by that measure, whatever you attempt. (Important side note: I am also sure that my opinion on the state of your soul has no bearing on the judgment of any soul but my own.) None of that is essential to my faith. My faith is that The Lord, Jesus, shall save every soul that will be saved. He is eternal, and omnipotent, and loves us each and all. There will be some, who will deny His love, and I fear that some will do so because He does not hate the souls that they hate. And they will perish, clinging to that hate. Not as a punishment, but as a consequence of mortality. Because our own being is limited, we will perish, alone, and be lost, if we do not come to Him. Why do it? Because we will miss you, and mourn for you, in Heaven, if you don’t.
Tris
" It is no use walking anywhere to preach unless our walking is our preaching." ~ Saint Francis Of Assisi ~
Ultimately, Tris, that’s my whole problem with Christianity.
If my wife were ill, it would be important to me to figure out what to do about it. So, I’d use my head. I wouldn’t go waving my hands and talking about how we all make mistakes. I don’t get into crystals or faith healing or anything like that, and dismiss studies that say they don’t work by saying that anyone can read anything they like into a study.
The fact is that, for whatever reason, you want to be a Christian. If the Bible is a blatant and obvious fraud, you don’t care- you’re going to find excuses to keep believing it, because you just want to be a Christian. You’ve had experiences that you find convincing, just like Muslims, Mormons, Jews, and members of pretty much every religion on earth have had. But you believe that you’re right, and they’re wrong. Personally, I take the diversity of people’s personal experiences of God to mean that personal mystical experience isn’t a good way to figure out what God expects of you or, for that matter, much of anything else. Plenty of fundies disagree with your vision of a loving God. Do you really think that they haven’t had experiences of their own? Do you know how many hateful fundies have told me that my own painful inability to have such experiences was simply the result of a desire for debauchery that motivates all atheists? That if I were sincere, then their idol would have revealed itself to me just as it does to them? If you were wrong in your understanding of God, how would he communicate that fact to you? Clearly not through the kinds of experiences on which you base your faith.
OTOH, logic and reason work extremely well for figuring out a lot of things. So if you ask me, if my wife were sick, I would use my head to try to figure out how best to help her. And back when I believed God existed and he had given me a written manual, I used my head and studied that manual very seriously. When it didn’t add up, I started to wonder whether God really wanted me to be an orthodox Jew. What I most certainly didn’t do is to insult God by stating that unlike Shakespeare, Milton, or, for that matter, the authors of high school math textbooks, God is so unable to communicate his desires clearly that the Bible is the only book in the world which is a total Rohrschach blot, which cannot be interpreted or critiqued except by a leap of pure eisegesis. If I claimed to be able to predict the future, no one would demur on the grounds that “battling verses” will get you nowhere, and that my predictions can mean many things to many people. If a car salesman were shown to be crooked, you wouldn’t defend him with the logic you use to defend the Christian Bible. Is God’s true word mere tinsel, in danger of being burned away with the dross in the fires of scrutiny? Or is it gold?
That’s what I find distressing about the illogic of Christianity. I know some intelligent, honorable people who are Christians (including, let me add, yourself,) and I don’t like seeing them engage in the tortuous dishonesty of the inerrantists in their attempts to prove that the Bible is as compassionate as they are. I don’t like to see such people debase the truth by lowering the bar so low that any and all falsehoods can pass. If you think divorcees should be permitted to marry, fine- then admit that Jesus was off base, and rely on your own judgement. If you think women should be the equals of men, fine- then admit that Paul was a product of his times. But don’t shame yourself by bending over backwards to pretend that your own compassion was present in the Bible all along.
I think my own compassion came from Christ. I don’t think it came from the Bible.
If your wife were sick, I would try to convince her to seek the services of a competent licensed professional physician. I might well pray for her too. If it were her wish, I would pray with her, as well.
Yes, I too have met and know hate mongers using the Bible to justify their hatred. And violent and greedy people who believe the Constitution was intended to protect their ability to pursue those desires. But I still protect the Constitution from its enemies, and I still read the Bible to bring my heart to the Lord. All the answers in life are not logical.
I don’t think I have ever claimed to have the only answer. I don’t think that Muslims Hindus and Buddhists are wrong. And the fact that that is logically impossible if Jesus Christ is Lord does not bother me. This isn’t logic. OK, I will be the one who is wrong. I don’t mind being wrong. I am wrong a lot.
But my faith does not cause me to deny the appropriate use of logic. I would never attempt to build a bridge based on Biblical engineering methods. The Bible is not an engineering textbook. I even strongly rely on science in the pursuit of my job, which is primarily one of providing love. But it requires that I provide good therapeutic care, as well as love. That takes logic, and science, and education, and training, and relentless willingness to examine my own behavior in a dispassionate way.
But when the science says to do what I know is not loving, then I make my decision on the basis of love. To me, that phrase means that I do as I know the Lord would have me do. Not all the wrong answers are the wrong choices. It isn’t logical, but it is the truth.
Do not worry, I will not contend with your logic, for either it will apply, and I will agree, or it won’t apply, and I will simply wish you well, and believe that eventually, the Lord will greet you, as you have greeted me. Cordially, and with respect, and openness. When that happens, you will know Him.
Tris
Let me try another example. I believe that it is perfectly possible for a person who was rightfully convicted of 1st degree murder to go to heaven, so long as he was honest in his request to be forgiven of his sins.
I agree with you that witnessing isn’t helping people. It’s only something you do when you know the time is right. I’ve actually always found people who mention Jesus 300 times in a five minute conversation to be extremely annoying, and usually seem rather fake to me.
A better example than the one I gave last time (I was up real late and my mind wasn’t working really well) is the thief who was being crucified next to Jesus. He had been a thief presumably for his whole life, but when he asked Jesus’ forgiveness, He responded by saying that he would be in Paradise before the end of the day. Did the new leaf he turned over get him down off the cross? The Bible doesn’t say, but I would assume not.
When people ask me what religion I am, I say that I am Christian. This is usually followed by, “No, I mean what type?” To which I respond, “I am Christian.” I do everything I can to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, occasionally stumbling, but still I try. I was raised in a charismatic Episcopalian church, and I still worship there on Easter and Christmas, and sometimes Thanksgiving and Good Friday. But there are some arguments that are within the church which I do not care to take a part in. If I go on a regular basis, I feel pressure to pick sides. Arguments over whether or not women and gays can be ordained as priests, whether or not I want part of my tithe to be given to the National Church (as the church I sometimes go to doesn’t agree with them on several issues). I prefer to not take a part in this, so I don’t claim to be a part of any denomination.
BTW, you’re right that tithing is probably the only steady source of income most of the honest churches have. I was painting with too broad of a brush and including Swaggart et al with them. That’s not what I meant, and thanks for correcting me.
Well, God does claim to be jealous, and I suppose that when you are the creator of the universe, you get to make a few demands. Nah, that doesn’t sound right, does it? Hmm…you’re going to have to let me get back to you on this one. I’ve never thought about it that way before.
Like I said, that might be just my way of dealing with things. I’ve always felt that if a person is truly sorry for what they have done, they will ask forgiveness, and it’s always been my interpretation of the Bible that that was God’s stance as well.
Incidentally, “Am I more forgiving than God?” has new GD thread written all over it.
No problem. I enjoy reading your posts and hearing your opinions. You make me think.