[sub]pssst pssst Abe - kniz entitled his response “the below is not the opinion of the poster”[/sub] but you did a nice job anyhow…
I wouldn’t call the following religious persecution but religious discrimination or poor tact.
Sorry can’t cite names or places: closed forums.
A PhD student in a top 10 American university science lab developed carpal-tunnel syndrom in the late eighties. Her advisor, unknown religious background, decided to kick her out of the lab. He had decided that her carpal-tunnel syndrom was psychosomatic. The reason he felt this way was that she was a practicing, evangelical Christian. Since her religious views were, in his opinion, symptoms of psychological disorder, the carpal-tunnel syndrom was just another manifestation of her psychosis. The PhD student took her case to the dean, who overruled the advisor. The advisor was ordered to relinquish funds and office space to the PhD student for a lab tech to finish the experiments necessary for defense of the dissertation. A pyschiatric evaluation was done of the PhD student, and the student was pronounces 100% healthy.
A PhD student in a top 20 American university humanities department wrote a dissertation with a now quite influential advisor. He was an evangelical Christian, and an exposition of evangelical Christianity was a necessary element of the method he was using for the dissertation (based on Hegel). At the dissertation defense, the advisor told him that the evangelical Christian stance that student took went against everything that the advisor believed in. What followed was a personal attack on the PhD student’s beliefs.
A sociology professor in a second tier research university in the united states was informed by a colleague that the colleague did not feel that anyone holding to Christian beliefs could be a good sociologist.
A university student in a top 20 research university in the united states had a tract about messianic Jews on her desk. The student was involved with a campus Christian fellowship that had a relationship with a messianic Jewish organization. The resident assistant of the student’s dorm came into the student’s room to ask the roomate a question. He spotted the tract and began berating the student about it. His loud voice attracted ten other members of the dormitory floor to enter the room and witness the verbal attack. The resident assistant was not reprimanded.
welcome to the SDMB, and specifically to Great Debates. One thing that you’ll note here is that virtually everybody, new person, long term poster etc. will be asked to provide some evidence for their data. This is most often done by the word “cite”.
“Cite please”? you’ve posted an awful lot of very specific information without anything that would allow any of us to verify if your statements are true. For instance, (and this really holds true of my reservation to accept all of what you posted)
Now, since the results of anything remotely like that would be highly confidential, and you state it unequivocably, it leads me to some possabilities:
- That you are the person spoken of in the example, in which case, my concern would be that perhaps you would be less than perfectly objective about the situation.
- You are the person who gave the exam, in which case, I’d be concerned about your ethics in relating such information on a message board (it contained enough info so that any real people involved or in close proximity to the situation would recognize it)
or (most likely)
3 you read it on some other message board/place - in which case, since you state that it’s a closed forum, and we can’t access it and judge the information/motives/data for ourselves, we’d chalk this one up to ‘anectdotal info’ -
and, in this forum, anectdotal info, while it may be interesting etc, doesn’t do much to prove a point.
Abe did acknowledge that it wasn’t my opinion, but thanks for making sure and I totally agree that he did a good job of showing there is no persecution involved.
Thank you for the welcome and for the guidelines on standards for posting to this board.
Would that I were capable of producing three PhD’s in the areas of biological sciences, social sciences, and the humanities! Would that my academic field were so broad that I would be asked to serve on dissertation committees in such diverse fields!
I wavered on the ethical question of invasion of privacy and decided that I was on the safe side. You say differently. In the interest of privacy I would ask a moderator to delete the post.
I might observe that you discredit the first person narrative testimony for its subjectivity. To what extent would you discredit a first person narrative testimony?
Would you prefer cites of lawsuits?
ethical question for the professional administering the test. Such a professional should not, in general, disclose results of tests to other parties w/o expressed, written and specific permission (obviously lacking here). If the info has become part of a lawsuit, then it becomes public. However, if it’s in public domain, then you should be able to link to it. See the quandry? Either it’s private info, which shouldn’t be disclosed, or it’s in the public domain which means, ‘where’s the link?’. If you had access prior (legitimately) and it was in private domain, yes, then I think you broke confidentialilty by putting it here (my personal opinion based on 25 years of experience in the Human service field). If you had access prior (through some one else breaking confidentiality), then it’s still a problem.
My concern was that you presented a lot of info about two cases. We were to accept that the info presented was complete, fair, accurate, unbiased and true. If they happened to you personally, I’d take it as your version of events, possibly true, possible that some relevant data was left out. If it happened to some one else and you ‘heard’ about it, well, then that’s yet another layer of ‘maybes’ onto the playing field (remember the child’s game ‘telephone’?)
If you are able to link to source data (a news link for example) where some one is reporting on the facts (hopefully without an agenda), then we could look at it. Stuff related on a message board is just that - I say I’m female. You have no reason to know if this is true (the folks who’ve met me have, but again, you only have their word that they’ve met me). I’ve frankly been involved in a number of debates where some one posted a lengthy ‘this happened’ and then we tracked it to the source and discovered that the info was not at all as represented. Not that I’m accusing you, please understand.
The quote that I pulled out of your post was very relevant to me. It frankly did not sound like the kind of ‘determination’ that would be made by the professional you say made it. That’s one of the reasons I’d prefer to see source documentation. Link to a lawsuit? well, to a decision, perhaps - either side can claim whatever they want, you know.
Oh. I did not read that when you said “test” that you were talking about psychology. I am not the psychologist who administered the tests. I see the point you are raising. However, I am not bound by any discretionary codes in any of the cases that I mentioned, other than the fact that I would not wish to disturb anyone’s tenure review.
I see your point about second hand reporting.
However, can a member of a community’s perception of discrimination or harrassment be accurately described objectively? At one university with which I have interviewed, St. Lawrence U, the sexual harrassment policy protects members of the community from “creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive employment, education, or living environment.”
Sure, why not? what do you think all those court cases are about anyhow? One describes the behavior that is objectionable, describes what methods have been taken to address the issue (“I told him I found it offensive for him to comment on my breasts. And yet, even after this converesation, he stopped by my work station on Monday and told me I had nice knockers, on Tuesday he said my boobs looked great, and on Wednesday he asked me if I was wearing a new bra, 'cause my tits looked all perky”) What do you think would be difficult?
Well, we don’t have an independent cite that your boobs are, in fact, perky and great.
ducks and runs
Shoot, we don’t even have established standards for “perky” or “great.”
Damn subjectivity.
- well, the dependent ones all agree…
Indeed, I addressed my post to the position of those holding views espoused by kniz, not to Kniz him/herself. As I mentioned, I was replying to the subjective (and possibly rhetorical) style of the arguments Kniz presented. I’m glad they were–at least so far-- well received.
If I’m not mistaken, there is a Bible verse that says the faithful will be hated or persecuted or at least has been interpreted to say this. There is the proof that Christians are hated. If is says so in the Bible, it must be True. Why bother asking or looking for evidence outside of the Good Book?
Here are a few Doc
Matt 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake.
John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
1 Cor 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
Well now I guess we can close this thread! 
My personal (and unflattering) hypothesis is that Christians looooove their martyrs (makes sense, since their star was one of martyrdom’s all-stars), but most don’t have the cojones to be real martyrs themselves–or in fact make any real sacrifices in the name of their faith at all. So many are forced to take little tiny piddly things and blow them mightily out of proportion, just so thay can claim “look how abused I am for my beliefs.”
Solar- maybe this thread would have done a bit better if it was started in IMHO or had some cites to go along with it.
Christians are NOT the most prosecuted religious group. Maybe its different for someone living outside of the US, but I really don’t think that Christians are persecuted all that much. Although, SOME Christians tend to go overboard when they witness and end up persecuting those who do not believe what they do. Thats why Christianity is disliked by some. Be very happy that you live in a country where you are pretty much free to do what you wish. (I know there are some exceptions and that the govt still has some laws, religious and otherwise, that people dislike and/or should be changed.) I am thankful that I have not recieved any crap from people (for lack of a better term at the moment) for my beliefs. I have spoken to some people who thought I was an idiot because I’m a Christian, but besides that occasional person, I have had no problems.
south333 wrote:
You’re a Christian?! Boy, you must be an idiot!
<ducking and running like there’s no tomorrow>
And if that isin’t informative enough http://www.somethingawful.com should answer all your questions:)