Well, I admit I’m biased.
I was going to laugh at this, but then…even those deeply religious people I know, who put up a creche *every Christmas- they still have a tree, and Santa, and Rudolph and Frosty and so forth.
I guess there may be a few Christians who refuse to use any secular trappings of Christmas. But not a lot.
- and who have a sign “Jesus is the reason for the season”.
Yeah - there seem to be a lot of christian trappings that sort of orbit the holiday, but it really does seem like the fat man in red has belly-bumped the baby out the central spot that christianity tried to make for him, probably accomplishing this via a dual-pronged effort combining decades of bribery with an aggressive advertising campaign.
When we came to Aus in the 60’s, the Fat Man in red was still almost entirely ‘Father Christmas’. Since then the Dutch influence from America via TV and movies has had a big effect, but not particularly to make Christmas Christian.
In England at the time of the Reformation and the Civil War the evangelical side of the English Church tried to stamp out Father Christmas, without any real success.
Easter Monday is a public holiday in Quebec, as is good Friday.
I think that’s a bit strong. I would phrase it that in the USA Christmas has a strong secular component layered over a religious base.
I know Buddhists that celebrate Christmas. They see it as a children’s holiday.
They put up lights and reindeer and pretty much everything other than a nativity scene or a cross.
This is true from a historical perspective, and still true for many, many Americans. All the same, it is both trivial and common these days for people to celebrate – indeed, immerse themselves in – Christmas without a hint of religion. Some of these people are also happy to accept pretty Christmas hymns in a secular manner, stripped of any meaning besides “It’s Christmastime, you’re warn and cozy, and you’ve heard this every winter since you were a toddler.”
So many Americans love the Victorian Christmas traditions, and the iconography that goes with them (Christmas trees, twinkling lights, carolers, pretty cards, knick-knacks on display, snow outside, etc.). All of that is commonly enjoyed without a hint of religion.
This includes (at least for us) tree worship, dancing naked in the snow, putting up a stocking for the dog, etc.
You’ll take my solstice holiday when you pry my frostbitten fingers away from it.
If Christmas was a religious holiday I would hate it and react to its trappings as though they conveyed infectious disease. (Much like I do with those trappings that are religious.) Given the way the holiday actually is around here, I don’t have to recoil much. Most of the overtly christian stuff you have to go looking for, whereas Santa and co. are everywhere you look - you see them when you’re sleeping, you know them when you’re awake.
I’m one of those other people, who prefers their songs without hints of human sacrifice, so I’m in a position to say that the one aspect of christmas where christianity hasn’t retreated completely to the sidelines is the music. There are god-free songs, but good luck finding a collection of them that isn’t infested with the god-referencing ones. Even Idina Menzel’s “Christmas: A Season of Love” includes an O Holy Night/Ave Maria medley - and she’s jewish! I’ve gone through my christmas collection and purged all piety and some my disks were almost completely deleted.
Honestly, pious carols are the strongest evidence for Christmas being a Christian holiday; stuff like nativities and midnight mass are things that some people do during christmas, but the songs are the one christian element that society is still promulgating alongside the secular elements.
Don’t betray the workers, OP. Don’t campaign against Christmas holidays. Instead campaign for Eid, Hannuka, Ramadan and whatever Thor’s festival is instead.
Fuck work is my point. And since landlords and bosses have a cinch on both the vote and the reins of morality, let’s at least secure the existence of the working class and a future of not working for all children some of the time.
Keep in mind that there are TWO entirely different Christmases. The traditional, religious Christmas is one, but there is an entirely different secular Christmas that everyone can take part in that requires no religious affiliation whatsoever. Black Friday, shop till you drop, Christmas trees, stockings, Santas and sleighs have absolutely nothing to do with religion.
We celebrate Christmas here in our public school district, but there is no sign of religious symbols of any kind. It’s all secular.
But to a percentage of the population (who are tired of being marginalized) all of those things represent a holiday we don’t celebrate. I don’t need to shop till I drop, since I don’t exchange gifts (Hanukkah is a minor holiday, but I still light the menorah). I don’t have a Christmas tree because I don’t celebrate Christmas. Santa is a Christian character, not one I would put up in my house. Sleighs I’ll give you, but I’d rather have skis.
To me those two holidays that you refer to are inseparably linked together. I would no more put up a Christmas tree than I would get a smudge on my forehead for Ash Wednesday. I appreciate that you don’t feel they are necessarily related, as long as you accept that it’s not a universal belief. And for some people it feels like a tiresome annual attempt to marginalize our religious traditions. I don’t believe you personally are trying to do that, but hearing the same thing every year gets annoying.
IMO, if you have Santa or use the name Christmas, it’s religious even if only culturally religious. You can have a truly secular Winter celebration, but you can’t have a Christmas one. I can’t speak for other cultures/religions, but where I grew up Jews simply don’t celebrate Christmas of any sort.
I only have 7 more days to use this soapbox, I’m getting my money’s worth.
Thanks, Telemark, for saying so well what I also feel so strongly. I’m Jewish. Christmas is not my holiday. All these “secular” trappings are trappings of a holiday that I don’t celebrate, don’t enjoy, don’t have any part in. And the overwhelmingness of “Christmas is for everyone! It’s just an American holiday!” feels an awful lot like an attempt to deny or minimize my different but still American culture and heritage and holidays.
It’s easy to say “it’s just Christmas, get over it and enjoy it, don’t be such a grinch” when you do have positive connections and memories. But not only is it not a holiday that I celebrate, it’s also a holiday that, in my past and the past of my family, was an occasion for harmful, insulting and sometimes even violent discrimination and mistreatment. So, yes, people who celebrate Christmas should go ahead and enjoy it. I’m glad for them (“some of my best friends…”) and happy that they get to be happy. I’m even happy that sometimes I’ve been able to help them out, by working for them, for example, so they can have a day off. But don’t try to tell me that it is or should be my holiday, too. It’s nothing to celebrate for me. And for many others, I know.
I don’t see anyone saying that it should be your holiday too. That again is something different from “there is also a secular Christmas.”
For the record, I wasn’t the one that wrote the text you attributed to me.
I, for one, don’t give a flip if you celebrate christmas. Feel free not to. Knock yourself out.
I disagree. It’s my understanding that the Santa character Santa is a jolly old elf, not a monk. He’s co-opted the name of Saint Nicholas, but isn’t the same character.
Similarly, it may be called christmas, but the christmas I celebrate has fuck-all to do with Christ. Or mass. Or mas. Or stma, for that matter. That’s just the name it’s been tarred with, it doesn’t make it a religious ceremony.
There are religious versions of St Nick, and secular versions- Santa.
And yet to me they are both religious, I don’t see any difference. So where do we go from here?
I don’t know why you think that there’s somewhere we need to go. You choose to avoid these because you consider these traditions as Christian.
But the fact that others choose to consider some of these traditions as secular means that there is a secular version of Christmas. It’s undeniable. You can’t tell the secular observers that they’re being Christian.
Someone above mentioned that the word “Christmas” is irretrievably Christian. Maybe. I use it on a secular manner. The same way I curse using words like “Jesus” or “jeezopeet” as secular swear words. You can’t tell me I’m practicing Christianity.
I’m not bothered at all by what people do in their private lives, or what companies choose to do. Anyone having Santa and a tree in their house as a secular celebration is fine by me. I have probably 50 Santas around my house because my wife is Christian and Santa was her mom’s favorite part of the holiday.
But just up thread someone said that their public school has a secular Christmas celebration. If you move these symbols into the public sector I have a problem with it. These discussions tend to cover both sides of the bright line that separates religion from government and that’s where the rubber hits the road. Santa set up in the town hall might not seem like a big deal to some people if they are convinced that he’s secular, but for many people that’s still a problem.